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Elections Discuss 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by dabateman Can someone tell me why these projects are bad? I don't think that any of them ...

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Old 09-25-2008, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Can someone tell me why these projects are bad? I don't think that any of them can be classified as a "bridge to nowhere", a project that was never completed and the money is still in the coffers of the Alaska government...
As far as the latter part of your comment...

The Bridge to Nowhere is an example of pork, but NOT something thrown in after a vote...ALL earmarks thrown in AFTER a vote are examples of pork (they are actually called "softmarks" when this happens), but not all pork spending are softmarks...

The Bridge to Nowhere WAS voted on...

Obama and Biden both voted for it...
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
As I've previously stated within this thread...

That's the issue with ALL of Obama's earmarks...

It doesn't matter if it was 5 cents to save drowning children, 43 cents for abused dogs, or 5 bucks for homeless medication...

Adding earmarks AFTER the Congress votes on a bill is WRONG...

If these projects "aren't so bad", then there is NO REASON why Congress shouldn't have a say on whether or not they get approved...

You know...taxpayer money...Congress holds the purse strings...that whole thing?...
What you are saying is contrary to ALL AVAILABLE RELIABLE knowledge about earmarking... You are saying that this is added after the fact after the vote has taken place. BS. The bill must be amended before passage to include these items. Otherwise, they aren't done. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't have logrolling or other practices. Congress voted to pass the pork. Show reliable evidence to the contrary and we'll talk.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
As far as the latter part of your comment...

The Bridge to Nowhere is an example of pork, but NOT something thrown in after a vote...

The Bridge to Nowhere WAS voted on...

Obama and Biden bothe voted for it...
So... the money hasn't been returned. If Palin was against it after she was for it, then the least she could do is return the taxpayers money to the government so that it can be spent on military debt or other programs that are underfunded.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
What you are saying is contrary to ALL AVAILABLE RELIABLE knowledge about earmarking... You are saying that this is added after the fact after the vote has taken place. BS. The bill must be amended before passage to include these items. Otherwise, they aren't done. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't have logrolling or other practices. Congress voted to pass the pork. Show reliable evidence to the contrary and we'll talk.
Wrong...

Quote:
Earmarks can be found both in legislation (also called "Hard earmarks" or "Hardmarks") and in the text of Congressional committee reports (also called "Soft earmarks" or "Softmarks"). Hard earmarks are binding and have the effect of law, while soft earmarks do not have the effect of law but by custom are acted on as if they were binding.
See that?...

The softmarks are earmarks that are NOT found in legislation...
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

A little more on the subject...

Quote:
What is an earmark?

An earmark is a line-item that is inserted into a bill to direct funds to a specific project or recipient without any public hearing or review. Members of Congress—both in the House and the Senate—use earmarks to direct funds to projects of their choice. Typically earmarks fund projects in the district of the House member or the state of the Senator who inserted it; the beneficiary of the funds can be a state or local agency or a private entity; often, the ultimate beneficiary is a political supporter of the legislator. Earmarks are the principal means by which Members of Congress “bring home the bacon.”

What’s wrong with earmarks?

It’s not so much any single earmark that is the problem, but rather the entire process. There is no transparency or accountability in the system; members can secure hundreds of millions of dollars of funding for a project without subjecting it to debate by their colleagues in the Congress, or to the scrutiny and oversight of the public. Because earmarks are hard to identify, some members use them to secretly award their biggest campaign contributors or, in the infamous case of former Rep. Randy “Duke” Cunningham, to exchange them for bribes. The secrecy of the earmarking process invites backroom deals and unethical—or even corrupt—behavior, part of a pay-to-play culture where lobbyists and contractors and well-connected individuals give campaign contributions to legislators in return for federal funding.
I don't think we can get any clearer than this...

Quote:
How are conference committees involved in the earmarking process?

Earmarks are often slipped into conference committee reports after the differing bills have passed one of the two legislative chambers.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Wrong...

See that?...

The softmarks are earmarks that are NOT found in legislation...
WRONG... This is why you shouldn't rely on wiki. I've read the relevant information from the source they claim. It doesn't jive with what they say it says....

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/m012606.pdf

Quote:
Earmarks are defined as any designation in an appropriation act or its accompanying conference report
which allocates a portion of an appropriation for a specific project, location or institution
So, it's part of the law. And if it's not part of the original law, it's part of the conference report which has the effect of law and is VOTED ON in each chamber.

Quote:
A conference report is an agreement on legislation that is negotiated between the House and Senate via conference committees. It is printed and submitted to each chamber for its consideration, such as approval or disapproval.
Conference Reports: Main Page
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Subjecting to debate is quite different than voting. I'm sure you see that. A member of congress can review the bill and if he or she disagrees with projects in the bill he or she can vote it down. You are making this into something it's not. While I'm not a big fan of earmark spending, it's not occurring after a bill is passed. The legislators vote to spend or not which is completely opposite of what you posted.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Subjecting to debate is quite different than voting. I'm sure you see that. A member of congress can review the bill and if he or she disagrees with projects in the bill he or she can vote it down. You are making this into something it's not. While I'm not a big fan of earmark spending, it's not occurring after a bill is passed. The legislators vote to spend or not which is completely opposite of what you posted.
Once again...

You are talking about HARD earmarks...NOT SOFT EARMARKS...

They're two different things...
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Once again...

You are talking about HARD earmarks...NOT SOFT EARMARKS...

They're two different things...
Point out in the source where there is a distinction between the two... Wiki doesn't count because anyone can edit it. Point it out in the scholarly source the wiki article claims differentiates between the two.

The source they cite doesn't distinguish between the two, so the author of the article has already been discredited by lying about what their source says.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: 2007 Congressional Record Against Waste

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Point out in the source where there is a distinction between the two... Wiki doesn't count because anyone can edit it. Point it out in the scholarly source the wiki article claims differentiates between the two.

The source they cite doesn't distinguish between the two, so the author of the article has already been discredited by lying about what their source says.
Done...

Using 'soft earmarks,' Congress keeps pork projects thriving

Quote:
Sometimes on Capitol Hill, lawmakers find that it pays to ask nicely instead of just ordering the bureaucrats around.

With great fanfare, Congress adopted strict ethics rules last year requiring members to disclose when they steered federal money to pet projects. But it turns out that lawmakers can still secretly direct billions of dollars to favored organizations by making vague requests rather than issuing explicit instructions to government agencies in committee reports and spending bills. That seeming courtesy is the difference between "soft earmarks" and the more insistent "hard earmarks."...

After hard earmarks figured into several congressional scandals and prompted criticism of wasteful spending from government agencies and watchdog groups, Congress cut back on their number last year and required disclosure of most of them. There were more than 10,000, costing nearly $20 billion last year, according to the Congressional Research Service.

But soft earmarks, while not a new phenomenon, have drawn virtually no attention and were not included in the ethics changes - and current ones under consideration - because Congress does not view them as true earmarks.

Their cost is not known. But the research service found that they amounted to more than $3 billion in one spending bill alone in 2006, out of 13 annual appropriations bills. And the committee that handles the bill, which involves foreign operations, has increasingly converted hard earmarks to soft ones.

"This shows that even though lawmakers now have to disclose their pet projects, we're not getting a full accounting of earmarks," said Ryan Alexander, director of Taxpayers for Common Sense, a group in Washington that tracks earmarks. "We may just be looking at the tip of the iceberg."

Representative Jeff Flake, Republican of Arizona, said he did not believe gentler language changed anything when it came to pork-barrel spending.

"No matter what you want to call it, an earmark is an earmark," said Flake, a longtime foe of the practice. "If congressional leaders don't believe that soft earmarks are earmarks, then I think that makes the case as to why we need tougher reforms in place."

Soft earmarks are included in a number of spending measures, but they tend to occur more frequently in spending bills that give money to the State Department, the U.S. Agency for International Development and other foreign aid programs.

Federal agencies are not required to finance soft earmarks. But officials have traditionally felt obliged to comply with such requests.

"Soft earmarks, while not legally binding, frequently come with an implicit threat: If you don't take our suggestions, we will give you a hard earmark next," said Andrew Natsios, former administrator of the Agency for International Development in the Bush administration.

In its report, the Congressional Research Service said agencies also could face budget cuts if they did not finance soft earmarks. Natsios said two lawmakers once threatened to cut his budget if he did not pay for one of their requests. He declined to identify them.
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