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Education & Curriculum Discuss High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allow at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by Joe Shoe I note for the viewers that Foundit has now intentionally switched from arguing about "controversial" ...

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Old 06-03-2017, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I note for the viewers that Foundit has now intentionally switched from arguing about "controversial" to ONLY fixating on the word "political". Because it's easier to defend, you see.
No. The real problem is you drop arguments and then later try to revive that focus while ignoring how I previously addressed it.
As I noted earlier, the school officials noted that the pro-life group was BOTH "too controversial and political"
Gay-Straight alliances are not political.

Moreover, as I have stated, the gay-straight alliance has school topical benefits while "pro-life" does nothing real to further the learning of students.

I have "switched" nothing. All these points are still on the table.
Feel free to stop cutting and pasting around arguments and address them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
And just as Foundit hypcritically accused someone else of doing, HE THEN MOVES THE GOALPOSTS.
HERE is what you said:
.... that it hurts their capability to learn. The actual function of high school. The bullying that too often goes on, if conducted anywhere else, would easily be responded to with legal action. And gay-straight alliances have helped address this.
See, you used the hindering of learning as a basis. But learning is hindered by ALL KINDS OF BULLYING. If that was the real basis, these efforts wouldn't be limited to just ONE SINGLE kind of bullying out of many.
Do you not understand CONTEXT of statements?

You are arguing that because I said "orange" with regards to furthering learning, that means it's relevant for you to complain about "orange" in a different context.

YES. I talked about anti-gay bullying hindering learning.
Obviously, ALL TYPES of bullying can hinder learning.

But just because gay-straight alliances address ONLY ONE type of bullying does not mean anything less regarding their focus being on anti-gay bullying.

We get you don't like them only addressing one bullying.
But that's YOUR problem.
That's not a deficiency of the group.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
The REAL POINT is (if you can stay out of the weeds long enough to see it) is that your basis that it's just to help learning in school is bullcrap...
WHY?
Justify that claim.

a) Anti-gay bullying hinders learning.
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.

You haven't posed any iota of an argument against either of those points.
Instead, you just claim "crap" with no justification.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
... and therefore it's not a valid argument to have one and not the other when it comes to comparing gay/straight alliances with a pro-life group.
As previously pointed out, the school officials are concerned regarding the group being BOTH "too controversial and political".

You complaining that anti-gay bullying groups address only one form of bullying does nothing to address that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
LOL, as if you've shown your dishonest tactics toward only 2 posters here ...

I never said it was only two.
I just gave two examples.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Again ....
Then you get asked to provide the same courtesy YOU ASK OF EVERYBODY ELSE TOO MUCH, and predictably you refuse and instead make some hypocrisy insult.
Start practicing what you preach if you want others to take your requests seriously.
Again ...
Recognizing the fact that I respond to habitual perpetrators in no way repudiates the fact that you are a habitual perpetrator.


And I whole-heartedly expect you to hypocritically cower from challenges to your honesty. Nothing I can do will change that behavior from you.
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Last edited by foundit66; 06-03-2017 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. The real problem is you drop arguments and then later try to revive that focus while ignoring how I previously addressed it.
As I noted earlier, the school officials noted that the pro-life group was BOTH "too controversial and political"
Gay-Straight alliances are not political.
Yes, and the 'political' part is what you've focused on on, as i pointed out. You say "no" to that, then do the very thing you're saying you're not doing by commenting YET AGAIN in your last sentence about whether they are political or not. Are you even TRYING, at this point??

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Do you not understand CONTEXT of statements?
When you move goalposts, you need to be asking YOURSELF that question.

What about the CONTROVERSIAL part of the two basis points given? 'Cause unlike what you claimed above by saying "no" to what I pointed out, you haven't really addressed that at all. It certainly IS controversial, and on that part the school is correct in their claims.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
But just because gay-straight alliances address ONLY ONE type of bullying does not mean anything less regarding their focus being on anti-gay bullying.
Well you said 'bullying'--the more general term, Foundit. Not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
WHY?
Justify that claim.
Dude, have you not been reading? That's WHAT I've been doing. I've already explained it in the fact that if it were really about stopping bullying it would be broader than one single example of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.
Well see you've changed your claim now: You're moved to a more SPECIFIC position. That's progress on your part.
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Old 06-03-2017, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Yes, and the 'political' part is what you've focused on on, as i pointed out.

It's what the school officials noted.
I am simply noting the reason they gave.
And, I'm also explaining WHY IT MAKES SENSE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
You say "no" to that, then do the very thing you're saying you're not doing by commenting YET AGAIN in your last sentence about whether they are political or not. Are you even TRYING, at this point??
As usual, your assessment of other people's points is woefully incomplete.

Again, to repeat what you have dropped...

Moreover, as I have stated, the gay-straight alliance has school topical benefits while "pro-life" does nothing real to further the learning of students.


a) Anti-gay bullying hinders learning.
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.


A pro-life group does nothing to further student learning of the provided courses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
What about the CONTROVERSIAL part of the two basis points given?
I capitulate that anti-gay bullies make gay-straight alliances "controversial".
Just like if somebody tried to start a "seeing impaired / perfect sight" group, bullies who don't like kids with glasses would make that group controversial as well.

But it's a stupid way to create a controversy...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Well you said 'bullying'--the more general term, Foundit.
Again, CONTEXT Joe.
If you need me to point anything out more specifically, point out the post I did that and I'll remind you.

I have said it often enough now that you can't pretend it's not recognized...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Dude, have you not been reading? That's WHAT I've been doing. I've already explained it in the fact that if it were really about stopping bullying it would be broader than one single example of it.
And I've already addressed why that's an idiotic allegation.

Just because a group dedicates itself to addressing one of the top reasons for bullying and doesn't address other reasons DOES NOT mean that the group is not somehow dedicated to addressing one of the top reasons for bullying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Well see you've changed your claim now: You're moved to a more SPECIFIC position. That's progress on your part.
My argument has always been that.
I just didn't realize you couldn't comprehend that from available context...
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Old 06-03-2017, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post

It's what the school officials noted.
I am simply noting the reason they gave.
And, I'm also explaining WHY IT MAKES SENSE.
yeah, the only one of the two you want to actually have to focus on ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Moreover, as I have stated, the gay-straight alliance has school topical benefits while "pro-life" does nothing real to further the learning of students.


a) Anti-gay bullying hinders learning.
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.


A pro-life group does nothing to further student learning of the provided courses.
How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in ... repeating the same thing over and over does NOT make it any more compelling as an argument the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time around ... Since you repeated your very same point again, I'll repeat the very same point back that already refuted you: Again, if the issue of "hindering learning" were really what this was about for you and others, you'd not limit it to only gay-related examples as that's merely one of out of MANY types of bullying, and even more so one out of MANY things that can hinder learning.
This ain't rocket science, F.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I capitulate that anti-gay bullies make gay-straight alliances "controversial". Just like if somebody tried to start a "seeing impaired / perfect sight" group, bullies who don't like kids with glasses would make that group controversial as well.
Well that's a start, though it was controversial as a gay-pride related issue long before 'anti-gay bullies' ever made it so. It's not like gay-pride proponents aren't stirring up controversy on their OWN to begin with, or stopping at that point. And to give gays a special privilege of having a club without giving it to others IS controversial, which is of course what this thread points out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
My argument has always been that.
I just didn't realize you couldn't comprehend that from available context...
Sorry, but you've cried wolf too many times on this. For you, complaining about context translates to "I screwed up so I had to get more specifics in my arguments to save face." (and then pretend it was a context issue to try and FURTHER save face.)
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
yeah, the only one of the two you want to actually have to focus on ...
And I explained why, although I thought it obvious...
I wasn't contesting the "controversial" aspect of some anti-gay people towards gay-straight alliances which seek to prevent anti-gay bullying.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in ... repeating the same thing over and over does NOT make it any more compelling as an argument the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time around ...
Then I recommend YOU LEARN from your own statements above.

What happens is this...
Joe Shoe: Argument_A
Foundit66: Response_B
Joe Shoe: < no response >

Then later, Joe repeats Argument_A.
So I repeat the same response I've already given.

If you stop repeating yourself in argument lines you have dropped, I won't repeat myself.
Comprehend?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Again, if the issue of "hindering learning" were really what this was about for you and others, you'd not limit it to only gay-related examples as that's merely one of out of MANY types of bullying, and even more so one out of MANY things that can hinder learning.
And I've already responded to that nonsense of yours.
There is no logic to that claim.

By your logic, if a group fighting hunger ONLY fights hunger for one group but doesn't fight it for everybody, that somehow proves that they aren't really about fighting hunger?!?!?

So we're back to YOU NOT RESPONDING to this point...
... only for you to repeat yourself again in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Well that's a start, though it was controversial as a gay-pride related issue long before 'anti-gay bullies' ever made it so.
Really?
You think so?
Then explain HOW AND WHY people would find it controversial to stop anti-gay bullying???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
And to give gays a special privilege of having a club without giving it to others IS controversial, which is of course what this thread points out.
Apples and Twinkies.
You're whining that Apples are allowed, therefore it's wrong that Twinkies are not.

Already explained why there are differences.
Preventing gay bullying helps the education process.
Political and controversial "pro-life" club does not.
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
And I explained why, although I thought it obvious...
I wasn't contesting the "controversial" aspect of some anti-gay people towards gay-straight alliances which seek to prevent anti-gay bullying.
Since I WAS MAKING a point of it, and you're flat out claiming here you weren't contesting it, then that is a concession on your part.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Then I recommend YOU LEARN from your own statements above.

What happens is this...
Joe Shoe: Argument_A
Foundit66: Response_B
Joe Shoe: < no response >

Then later, Joe repeats Argument_A.
So I repeat the same response I've already given.

If you stop repeating yourself in argument lines you have dropped, I won't repeat myself.
Comprehend?
You've added nothing new here, and are just in 'you-went-first' mode, so I'm not going to waste time on any of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
There is no logic to that claim.

By your logic, if a group fighting hunger ONLY fights hunger for one group but doesn't fight it for everybody, that somehow proves that they aren't really about fighting hunger?!?!?
And in fact it WOULD prove it IF THE GROUP WERE MAKING THE CLAIM THEY WERE ABOUT HUNGER, PERIOD.
So yes, if a group says "we're concerned about ending hunger" (giving the impression they're out to solve a much WIDER problem) but they intentionally only serve food to a small part of the hunger-plagued population, then YES, THAT POINT STANDS.
Your analogy totally FAILS for you, and so my point still stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Really?
You think so?
Then explain HOW AND WHY people would find it controversial to stop anti-gay bullying???
Well you've not shown that they do, or rather that such a basis exists in the first place. I see no reason to assume "people finding it controversial to stop anti-gay bullying" has ever been the reason some people aren't keen on these GSA clubs, to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Already explained why there are differences.
Preventing gay bullying helps the education process.
Political and controversial "pro-life" club does not.
Well you're just in a circle then, at this point. Going back to the very claim that is spurious to begin with, for reasons I've shown.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Since I WAS MAKING a point of it, and you're flat out claiming here you weren't contesting it, then that is a concession on your part.

Whatever you need to float your boat.

On another note, it astounds me how much of a to do you have to make over simple agreement.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
You've added nothing new here, and are just in 'you-went-first' mode, so I'm not going to waste time on any of that.
And we're back to Joe ignoring the response provided...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
And in fact it WOULD prove it IF THE GROUP WERE MAKING THE CLAIM THEY WERE ABOUT HUNGER, PERIOD.
So yes, if a group says "we're concerned about ending hunger" (giving the impression they're out to solve a much WIDER problem) but they intentionally only serve food to a small part of the hunger-plagued population, then YES, THAT POINT STANDS.
This is so ludicrous it isn't even funny.

Let's try another example.
Suppose we had some group of do-gooders who label themselves as "firefighters".
Because the group doesn't fight EVERY fire in existence, that proves them as liars and not really interested in fighting fires.

Can't beat that level of absurdity from Joe...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Well you've not shown that they do, or rather that such a basis exists in the first place.. I see no reason to assume "people finding it controversial to stop anti-gay bullying" has ever been the reason some people aren't keen on these GSA clubs, to begin with.
So why would they be controversial then?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Well you're just in a circle then, at this point. Going back to the very claim that is spurious to begin with, for reasons I've shown.
No. You haven't.
You have NEVER shown how a pro-life group can help the education process.
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Let's try another example.
Suppose we had some group of do-gooders who label themselves as "firefighters".
Because the group doesn't fight EVERY fire in existence, that proves them as liars and not really interested in fighting fires.
If the firefighters were only fighting one SINGLE type of fire--say chemical fires only, but not fires at large, but call themselves 'firefighters' then the analogy certainly fits. THAT'S the better analogy.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
This is so ludicrous it isn't even funny.

Can't beat that level of absurdity from Joe...
I note that you're basically in a mode now where you're just blithely using terms like "ludicrous" and "absurd"--nnothing more than your opinion stemming from your misconception that you represent some standard here, but you don't. I can just as easily say you're being absurd in how you're not recognizing the obvious and glaring silliness of people who say they're all about opposing bullying in general as their basis of what they're doing but only in PRACTICE opposing it in one single example. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
So why would they be controversial then?
Because gay pride is already controversial and has been for ages--it's politics.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. You haven't.
You have NEVER shown how a pro-life group can help the education process.
Meh, you've never shown how GSA's really help the education process either. You've only made claims.
I never SAID pro-life groups "help the education process"--in asking for that, you're pushing a fallacious premise that a club has to do that in order to exist in a school in the first place.
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
If the firefighters were only fighting one SINGLE type of fire--say chemical fires only, but not fires at large, but call themselves 'firefighters' then the analogy certainly fits. THAT'S the better analogy.
Why is it better?

Does it magically mean they are no longer firefighters?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I note that you're basically in a mode now where ...
Joe, you get in this stage repeatedly where you imagine a tone or some other b.s. which isn't there.
And then you want to argue about it.
I did no such thing. I gave the reason why I came to that assessment. And I'm discussing it.

If you want a real place to apply that assessment, look in the mirror the next time you try to throw out an assessment (like claiming "irrelevant") while refusing to provide justification.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Because gay pride is already controversial and has been for ages--it's politics.
So, it's controversial, because you claim it historically has been...
That's circular logic for you...

The historical "controversial" involves a lot of anti-gay bullying and oppression.
The point of the question (which is possibly why you want to avoid it) is HOW CAN ANYBODY claim a gay-straight alliance to stop anti-gay bullying is "controversial" unless those people want to support such bullying in the first place?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Meh, you've never shown how GSA's really help the education process either. You've only made claims.
Despite your dishonest claims, I have done just that.
a) Anti-gay bullying hinders learning.
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.

If you can explain which of those you think is inaccurate, that would be a start.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I never SAID pro-life groups "help the education process"--in asking for that, you're pushing a fallacious premise that a club has to do that in order to exist in a school in the first place.
No. Not a "false premise".
I've already documented that the right often argues that schools should get "back to basics". "The three R's" as an example.
Focus the school process on education.

Beyond that, that is the purpose of a school. To educate.
If a group like a pro-life is going to create political controversy with no benefit to the curriculum, then it's reasonable for the school officials to question its presence and decide whether it should be allowed.
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Last edited by foundit66; 06-09-2017 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: High school says pro-life club is too ‘controversial’ – but here’s what they allo

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Why is it better?

Does it magically mean they are no longer firefighters?



Joe, you get in this stage repeatedly where you imagine a tone or some other b.s. which isn't there.
And then you want to argue about it.
I did no such thing. I gave the reason why I came to that assessment. And I'm discussing it.

If you want a real place to apply that assessment, look in the mirror the next time you try to throw out an assessment (like claiming "irrelevant") while refusing to provide justification.



So, it's controversial, because you claim it historically has been...
That's circular logic for you...

The historical "controversial" involves a lot of anti-gay bullying and oppression.
The point of the question (which is possibly why you want to avoid it) is HOW CAN ANYBODY claim a gay-straight alliance to stop anti-gay bullying is "controversial" unless those people want to support such bullying in the first place?



Despite your dishonest claims, I have done just that.
a) Anti-gay bullying hinders learning.
b) Alleviating anti-gay bullying helps students.

If you can explain which of those you think is inaccurate, that would be a start.



No. Not a "false premise".
I've already documented that the right often argues that schools should get "back to basics". "The three R's" as an example.
Focus the school process on education.

Beyond that, that is the purpose of a school. To educate.
If a group like a pro-life is going to create political controversy with no benefit to the curriculum, then it's reasonable for the school officials to question its presence and decide whether it should be allowed.
Did I miss the part where you presented evidence that the gay straight alliance at the school was focused exclusively on preventing bullying? A charter with links perhaps. Or, is it just an assertion without any offer of proof?

No one disputes preventing bullying is worthwhile but it is implausible the gay straight alliance wouldn't express an opinion on "rights" issues like same sex marriage or crushing small businesses when they practice their religious convictions. Naw, those aren't controversial issues, the school doesn’t allow anything but the Left wing orthodoxy to be presented.

The claim that a group promoting the preservation of human life is stunning in its mendacity. Unborn children slaughtered by abortion don't get to grow up to go to school at all.
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