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Education & Curriculum Discuss Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by Hairy Jello No, that's not what the study says at all. The analysis contradicts itself about half ...

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2016, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairy Jello View Post
No, that's not what the study says at all. The analysis contradicts itself about half a dozen times if you actually take the time to read it.
Can you document this with an actual example?
Or is HJ claims all we have to go on with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairy Jello View Post
Also, it's impossible to claim improved contraception is entirely responsible for a decline in teen pregnancy. In order for one to believe that nonsense, you'd have to say there were zero other factors; and we all know that's complete bs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairy Jello View Post
The study is a lame, partisan attempt to push contraceptives and claim they're the only way to prevent teen pregnancy.
Your response is lame and partisan.
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

A problem with the study:
Several of the "contraceptives" used in the estimates for this study do not only prevent pregnancy but also terminate pregnancies. For example IUD's, these can prevent conception, but they also prevent fertilized (post conception) eggs from implanting. The study counts these incidents as pregnancies prevented when they are really pregnancies terminated. If you are going to count those you may as well use abortions under "contraceptives used".
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Old 09-09-2016, 02:33 PM
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Post Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Back in the real scientific world...
Emergency Contraception (EC) and Intrauterine Devices (IUDs) are Not Abortifacients

Or maybe we should consider these guy's storage units as "pregnant"...
https://www.reprotech.com/embryo-storage.html
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Old 09-09-2016, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Well....

Quote:
Alaska Regional Hospital
Pregnancy begins when a woman's ovum is fertilized by a male's sperm. However, often doctors "date" a pregnancy from the first day of the woman's last period. This method of dating a pregnancy results in a slight discrepancy (about two weeks, depending on when fertilization occurred) between the pregnancy in weeks and in the actual age of the baby. For example, a woman may be six weeks along in her pregnancy, but the baby may be only about four weeks old.

Quote:
Dr. Diana K. Blythe, MD , Pediatrics, answered on behalf of Pediatric Associates
When a pregnancy begins is actually somewhat complicated. Many people think that the pregnancy starts when a sperm fertilizes and egg. This is hard to argue, but doctors tend to say that pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg implants in the wall of the uterus. It really depends on whether you think pregnancy starts at fertilization or implantation.

To make it more complicated, pregnancy dates begin to be counted on the first day of a women's last period. This is before ovulation, before fertilization and before implantation.
Quote:
Dr. Mehmet Oz, MD , Cardiology (Cardiovascular Disease)
Pregnancy begins when a mature egg from a woman is fertilized by a mature sperm from a man.
Quote:
Most of the polled obstetrician-gynecologists believe pregnancy begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. But a minority say it doesn't begin until a week later when the fertilized egg implants in the uterus -- the definition given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG).
When does pregnancy begin? Doctors disagree | Reuters

Your attempt at snarkyness aside, looks like the science jury is still out on that one.
Can't help but notice you didn't comment on the fact that the title or your o.p. is untrue.
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Old 09-09-2016, 05:05 PM
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Post Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Well....
Quote:
Alaska Regional Hospital
Pregnancy begins when a woman's ovum is fertilized by a male's sperm.
So do you consider these guy's storage units as "pregnant"?
https://www.reprotech.com/embryo-storage.html


Quote:
This is hard to argue, but doctors tend to say that pregnancy begins when the fertilized egg implants in the wall of the uterus. It really depends on whether you think pregnancy starts at fertilization or implantation.
This debate is widely driven on one side by a religious motivation to arrive at a desired conclusion.
Not a real scientific evaluation.


Quote:
Most of the polled obstetrician-gynecologists believe pregnancy begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. But a minority say it doesn't begin until a week later when the fertilized egg implants in the uterus -- the definition given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG).
This is funny as I gave a citation from ACOG, the sister group.
One of the main differences is that the "study" quoted was put together by a guy who appears to make a living out of trying to combine religion and medicine.
https://pmr.uchicago.edu/directory/farr-curlin
The study was not by ACOG themselves.

The article is amusing in that it never tells you how many people actually responded to the questionnaires. Also, sending questionnaires and relying on people to respond is akin to hoping that the people responding to a web-site questionnaire will be representative of something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Your attempt at snarkyness aside, looks like the science jury is still out on that one.
Can't help but notice you didn't comment on the fact that the title or your o.p. is untrue.
So you comment on one word.
Literally less than 0.25% of the article.
A word I really gave no importance to regarding an absolute literal meaning when I gave my thoughts on the article...

I guess if you're really starving for my opinion, I don't think they should have used the word "Entirely" either.
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Old 09-12-2016, 10:35 AM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
This debate is widely driven on one side by a religious motivation to arrive at a desired conclusion.
Not a real scientific evaluation.
Right, I quoted two doctors, a non-religious hospital, and a study done by five doctors, so obviously its all about religion.
You need to loosen up the strap on those blinders, they are squeezing your head.

Quote:
This is funny as I gave a citation from ACOG, the sister group.
One of the main differences is that the "study" quoted was put together by a guy who appears to make a living out of trying to combine religion and medicine.
The study was not by ACOG themselves.
The article is amusing in that it never tells you how many people actually responded to the questionnaires. Also, sending questionnaires and relying on people to respond is akin to hoping that the people responding to a web-site questionnaire will be representative of something.
I know the study wasn't done by ACOG, the idea was to show you that many, or perhaps most, obstetrician-gynecologists disagree with ACOG.
Also, if you could inconvenience your bias for a moment, the article contains a link to the study, done by five doctors, that tells exactly how many questionnaires were sent out and how many were returned.

Quote:
So you comment on one word.
Literally less than 0.25% of the article.
A word I really gave no importance to regarding an absolute literal meaning when I gave my thoughts on the article...

I guess if you're really starving for my opinion, I don't think they should have used the word "Entirely" either
Being as that word made the article and the linked study you posted obviously untrue, it seemed important to me. Perhaps not to you though.
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Old 09-12-2016, 11:12 AM
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Post Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Gee lurch.
You keep avoiding this question...
So do you consider these guy's storage units as "pregnant"?
https://www.reprotech.com/embryo-storage.html





Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Right, I quoted two doctors, a non-religious hospital, and a study done by five doctors, so obviously its all about religion.
You need to loosen up the strap on those blinders, they are squeezing your head.
I pointed out that the head doctor on your "study" clearly has religious motivations. You ignore that fact.

Riddle me this.
Removing religion from the equation, what's the significance in proclaiming a woman is pregnant just because a fertilized zygote is in her body?
The obvious conclusion is that she is pregnant when it's attached.

By your approach, if a woman goes in to have an embryo implanted, she would be declared "pregnant" immediately after the procedure completed.
But in the real world, the woman has to come back later to confirm the pregnancy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
I know the study wasn't done by ACOG, the idea was to show you that many, or perhaps most, obstetrician-gynecologists disagree with ACOG.
ROFLMAO!
The guy who hates polls suddenly wants to believe a mailed questionnaire response because it's convenient for him...

There is no way to conclude anything from that methodology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Also, if you could inconvenience your bias for a moment, the article contains a link to the study, done by five doctors, that tells exactly how many questionnaires were sent out and how many were returned.

First off, as I've already addressed but you've ignored, the methodology involved is pure crap.
You can't just blindly send out mail and hope that the responses will be representative.

Without that, you've just given the opinions of a little over 5% of all OB/GYNs. Nothing more.
But I think it would have been fascinating to ask them in the same questionnaire their opinions on abortion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Being as that word made the article and the linked study you posted obviously untrue, it seemed important to me. Perhaps not to you though.
ROFLMAO!
So you posted a study, therefore my study is untrue?
Wow.

Or is it that I posted a study, and I can blindly allege that made your study untrue?
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Old 09-12-2016, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

I don't think teenagers, the people with their hormones ruling their brains, give a rat's ass about frozen embryos or fertilized zygotes or storage units or anything like that. They want to get their rocks off the old-fashioned way and forget about any other responsibilities and technical "stuff".
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Old 09-12-2016, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Gee lurch.
You keep avoiding this question...
So do you consider these guy's storage units as "pregnant"?
https://www.reprotech.com/embryo-storage.html
I'm not "avoiding this question", I'm ignoring a stupid non-sequitur you posted in an attempt to move the goal posts and I will continue to do so.

Quote:
I pointed out that the head doctor on your "study" clearly has religious motivations. You ignore that fact
.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm pointing out that the study was done by five doctors. Are they all religiously motivated? How about the 1000+ OB/GYN's that replied, are they all religiously motivated? How about the other two doctors and the non-religious hospital I quoted, are they all religiously motivated?

Quote:
By your approach, if a woman goes in to have an embryo implanted, she would be declared "pregnant" immediately after the procedure completed.
It's not "my" definition, it is the definition provided to me by hospitals, doctors, and medical dictionaries. Argue with them.

Quote:
But in the real world, the woman has to come back later to confirm the pregnancy.
According to the definition provided by doctors and hospitals, she would be coming back to confirm she was still pregnant.

Quote:
The guy who hates polls suddenly wants to believe a mailed questionnaire response because it's convenient for him...
Right, because a specific medical question submitted to 1000+ OB/GYN's for answers is the exact same thing as a political poll submitted to a handful of random people representing about 1/1000000 of the population.

Quote:
There is no way to conclude anything from that methodology.
Thinking people can conclude that many, possibly most, OB/GYN's believe pregnancy starts at fertilization.

Quote:
First off, as I've already addressed but you've ignored, the methodology involved is pure crap.
You can't just blindly send out mail and hope that the responses will be representative.
You specifically said "The article is amusing in that it never tells you how many people actually responded to the questionnaires.". I addressed that statement by informing you that the article included a link to the study that gave exactly that info.
They didn't blindly send out anything. They sent a specific question to almost two thousand of the people most knowledgeable about the subject. If you can't see the value in that, then it would seem your bias is impenetrable.

Quote:
Without that, you've just given the opinions of a little over 5% of all OB/GYNs. Nothing more.
But I think it would have been fascinating to ask them in the same questionnaire their opinions on abortion.
Considering some of the political polls I've seen you reference, I'd say 5% is an astronomically high sampling.
As for their opinion on abortion, not that it is relevant to this discussion, according to your beloved ACOG, who did (gasp) a survey of OB/GYN's, not very many of them are willing to perform abortions.
Abortion Is Legal, but What Percentage of Ob-gyns Will Provide One? - Freakonomics Freakonomics

Quote:
So you posted a study, therefore my study is untrue?

Or is it that I posted a study, and I can blindly allege that made your study untrue?
When did you post a study? Do you mean that position paper from ACOG? That isn't and shouldn't be confused with a study.
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Old 09-12-2016, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Declines in Teen Pregnancy Risk Entirely Driven by Improved Contraceptive Use

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Originally Posted by Manitou View Post
The good thing is that teen pregnancies go down more after the girl is in her 20's.

Seriously, some young people will abstain from sex, because they value their sanity and their future.
And the other 99.9% won't abstain because the hormones kick in at around 13 and abstention must last until at least HS graduation to be effective.

I'm not opposed to contraceptives being available to teens. I don't think they change sexual activity one whit. But they do change the consequences.

As an aside, you don't need an abortion if you aren't pregnant. Contraceptives help that problem.
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