Tax havens, exemptions, loop holes all exist for the benifit of businesses. Some of these exist specific to a particular business or industry to help keep or start a desired economic event.

Here in Kzoo we lost a ton of jobs when Upjohn's company was taken over by Pharmicia. Our city went to the state and the company to get favorable treatment in order to keep research and production in the area. It worked for a while until they were bought by Phizer which in turn closed our research division. The fortunate out come was a number of "spin-off" start-ups that all take advatage of tax breaks.

Spence, I was not asking what your business owes a fiscal debt but to your community as a whole? I would argue that you owe no more than what is paid for.

As a Landlord,my community has forced me to spend thousands of dollars to meet code! My community has given me a very high quality of life,Ottawa county is beautiful and highly conservative with one of the lowest tax in the state. Would I invest in properties located in Kentwood if the tax base was lower? That would depend on how much lower...I just can't complain about my tax situation. I make so much in depreciation that I often feel guilty! As long as they don't tamper with depreciation rates...life remains good...

I worry more about the next generation,out sourcing,cheap illegal labor and goods that are subsidized by foreign powers are starting to make a real impact.Education was once the answer but the cost has gone up! Many students cannot find work to cover the costs and education is becoming a luxury.I fear for the uneducated worker,their future looks bleak.I also have friends who have a college education who live in basements.We are going through a transformation...there will be some suffering along the way.In a sense...America itself is a business but what profit is there if we sell our soul in the process?

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The Pessimist complains about the wind.
The Optimist expects it to change.
The Realist adjust the sails - William A. Ward

I have to agree with your position. But go tell that to all of states unemployment offices with so many trying to stay afloat with their bennies.

If prices do drop to the 1950's level in this country then the pay scale would drop. And jobs would return. Do you think that will happen, not me.

So the future looks bleak for many in the job market and those that will be entering it. Because what you point out is happening and will continue to.

I was just pointing out that we had another 400+ employer leave our local market. Not counting the lay offs or the fact several other companies that left in the last year or the ones that closed shop.

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"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation... One is by sword... The other is by debt."

John Adams 1826

The problem now IMHO is that China has such a large middle class that they are outsourcing to the Phillipines and India. We gave up manufacturing in favor of marketing. Now the Chinese are marketing to us. That flip has already strated happening. We are going to be forced into a leveling of wages with China eventually. One way or another. We can't get out of the global market. But maybe the living wages for all will be good. I'm not saying it as a negative. Henry Ford knew you needed buyers. All business does. If the average wage is $20 your cell phone will cost $200. If the average wage $5 people will sell you cell phones for $50. So who really knows if it will be bad or just different? I know I don't. Its been like an earthquack over the last year. All the institutions you assumed where OK were on thin ice. Its scary to think how many people who knew our banking and insurance companies were basically an illusion. But let greed blind them to the facts. People who are supposed to know more then you and me. And when they show you how ridiculously lame people were in to looking in to their own investments it makes me want the grown ups to come home. The party got out of hand.

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Truth, Justice and the American way

Spence, depreciation is a write off, ie. a tax break. If we are so concerned about outsourcing why are we making it so hard to do business in the US?

Once upon a time long long ago...people were happy making a 6% return on their money! This is no longer true today... businesses would like to make a 20% - 40% return or higher. Not every business that leaves our shores is near bankruptcy... but they are concerned about the future and rightly so!

As you know or have chosen to ignore...I favor the Fair Tax. I want business to flourish along with labor! Labor and businesses alike find it hard to compete against foreign businesses that are subsidized by their government.Yet..like a Thorn bird...we feel compelled to impale ourselves on this thorny issue by giving our competition a clear advantage in trade.

Why do American businesses locate in Canada?...no..it's not the climate and no..it's not that labor there is that much cheaper. The "reason" is simple...Canada pays for their workers health care! That increases profit potential and it's a valid reason to re locate as we (foolishly) do not subsidize our labor's health care. This is but one example...there are many others.Labor has no idea what they are up against nor does the consumer. Cheap products made abroad are beginning to take their toll. The Fair tax and a new emphasis on fair trade may save the day but it may already be too little and too late.

Everyone want's a (good deal) even if that means selling America's industrial soul in the process...

-0-

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The Pessimist complains about the wind.
The Optimist expects it to change.
The Realist adjust the sails - William A. Ward

I agree with all of what you just said. Does our government allow complete write off on health care cost paid by employers?

Why is valid to shed health care cost in Canada but not to shed tax burden?

I like the Fair Tax as well. We would have to do some amendments befor it could be implemented though, so that we could not easily raise to rate or institute another tax on top of this one.

I was once involved in a bitter dispute on this very question.In my type of business there is no payroll or benefits to pay out.A close friend of mine vehemently disagreed with me when I said all you have to do with your heath care expenses is deduct them at the end of the year.I believe he has 27 employees..anyway...he said he can only deduct about 80% of the cost.

He also said he is stuck paying the premiums quarterly.In other words..he has to "finance" health care for his employees.He would prefer the government or the employees themselves did the financing and take it off his back.How many new employees could be hired if an employer had zero health care and HC "legacy" costs? I think it would make a dramatic difference!

Now I'm on the bandwagon to relieve employers of this burden so that they can be more competitive.Heath care reform is important...I'm not talking about single payer,I'm talking about reform and getting a grip on the spiraling cost before it's too late.Let's keep our corporations and jobs here! Is it unpatriotic for a corporation to leave our nation? No more unpatriotic than when Americans prefer to buy cheaper product made abroad! I see (both) sides of the argument. Everyone is looking for a (bargain)..some look for a bargain on the cost of labor,others look for it at Walmart...where does it all end???

Correct: Well written amendments would be needed here so that they are not prone to "creative" interpritation in the courts.The Fair Tax may be our only hope for the future. I want business to flourish and I also want to uphold the middle class. Passing the Fair Tax may be a step in the right direction and I see it's potential. When one thinks about it.. consumers ultimately pay the business tax through higher costs on goods and services. My dream for the future is to "increase" the incentive to succeed...not impede it.

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The Pessimist complains about the wind.
The Optimist expects it to change.
The Realist adjust the sails - William A. Ward

So how do you propose we get more affordable health care cost?

I am self employed, and if not for my wifes employer provided insurance I would have to pay for my families premium. I don't look as insurance the way alot of people do. I see it as another component of compensation. As such I see it as taxable income. If our government wants to promote employer provided health care insurance then it should allow employees to write the entire amount off. The same deduction should be applied to the independant contractors. We should also be allowed to buy insurance where we like, just like liability car or business.

But back to the thread. We no longer live in a localized market. Many of the things we buy are made elsewhere because US companies have no desire to produce those product at all let alone here in the US. Rubber dog poop, horse shoes, and micro cars I guess.

There are some success stories here in MI however (for now) Wolvereen Shoes, some institional fruniture companies are taking advantage of government expansion, and some biotech like Stryker and some Phizor spin-offs.

Unfortunately there are no (easy) answers..."someone" is going to get stuck with the bill but should it be the employer? Job #1 should be to stop HC from spiraling out of control. Make health insurance work for people and businesses, not just insurance and drug companies.Studies show the reduction of errors caused by poor communication and scribbled prescription mistakes can save billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives every year.

Requiring employers to cover the health care of their employees seems absurd to me but that's the accepted paradigm.How is our health the responsibility of our employer? It started out as a (perk) but the cost of that perk has spiraled out of control. Just look at the cost of HC legacy for retired workers...something has got to give.I say permit employers to opt out and pay into a general fund. This may greatly reduce their long term cost factors. Make it mandatory that insurance companies (cannot) refuse coverage to anyone regardless of pre existing illness. Note: Providers have already offered to do this! Require the remaining population to carry their own coverage and make all expenses fully tax deductible for all legitimate illnesses and procedures.Going forward..cover everyone else who cannot afford private HC through said general fund like we are already doing.

I oppose national or single payer HC...change will come and both parties know it...the devil remains in the details but this I know...we can do better...

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The Pessimist complains about the wind.
The Optimist expects it to change.
The Realist adjust the sails - William A. Ward