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Old 09-13-2020, 10:08 AM
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Default How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled
...."I remember the first meeting where I actually told a city council that it was costing more to recycle than it was to dispose of the same material as garbage," she says, "and it was like heresy had been spoken in the room: You're lying. This is gold. We take the time to clean it, take the labels off, separate it and put it here. It's gold. This is valuable."
But it's not valuable, and it never has been. And what's more, the makers of plastic — the nation's largest oil and gas companies — have known this all along, even as they spent millions of dollars telling the American public the opposite.
NPR and PBS Frontline spent months digging into internal industry documents and interviewing top former officials. We found that the industry sold the public on an idea it knew wouldn't work — that the majority of plastic could be, and would be, recycled — all while making billions of dollars selling the world new plastic.
The industry's awareness that recycling wouldn't keep plastic out of landfills and the environment dates to the program's earliest days, we found. "There is serious doubt that [recycling plastic] can ever be made viable on an economic basis," one industry insider wrote in a 1974 speech.
Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true.
"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment," Larry Thomas, former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, known today as the Plastics Industry Association and one of the industry's most powerful trade groups in Washington, D.C., told NPR....
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/89769...=pocket-newtab
Capitalism?

What would help capitalist NOT lie to the public about it's products?
Especially if they are known to be dangerous to the environment or the public health?
Is this practice, (lying/misleading the public in order to sell more products despite the dangers) strange and uncommon among major industries/corps?

Should anything be done to companies for knowingly lying to the public in general?
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

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Old 09-15-2020, 08:36 AM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled
...."I remember the first meeting where I actually told a city council that it was costing more to recycle than it was to dispose of the same material as garbage," she says, "and it was like heresy had been spoken in the room: You're lying. This is gold. We take the time to clean it, take the labels off, separate it and put it here. It's gold. This is valuable."
But it's not valuable, and it never has been. And what's more, the makers of plastic the nation's largest oil and gas companies have known this all along, even as they spent millions of dollars telling the American public the opposite.
NPR and PBS Frontline spent months digging into internal industry documents and interviewing top former officials. We found that the industry sold the public on an idea it knew wouldn't work that the majority of plastic could be, and would be, recycled all while making billions of dollars selling the world new plastic.
The industry's awareness that recycling wouldn't keep plastic out of landfills and the environment dates to the program's earliest days, we found. "There is serious doubt that [recycling plastic] can ever be made viable on an economic basis," one industry insider wrote in a 1974 speech.
Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true.
"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment," Larry Thomas, former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, known today as the Plastics Industry Association and one of the industry's most powerful trade groups in Washington, D.C., told NPR....
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/89769...=pocket-newtab
Capitalism?

What would help capitalist NOT lie to the public about it's products?
Especially if they are known to be dangerous to the environment or the public health?
Is this practice, (lying/misleading the public in order to sell more products despite the dangers) strange and uncommon among major industries/corps?

Should anything be done to companies for knowingly lying to the public in general?
Once again, you attack Capitalism instead of directing your ire at the crooks that are taking advantage of it. You really should educate yourself on economic systems as you don't seem to understand the one that has pulled more people out of poverty than ANY OTHER SYSTEM in the history of the world.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Once again, you attack Capitalism instead of directing your ire at the crooks that are taking advantage of it. You really should educate yourself on economic systems as you don't seem to understand the one that has pulled more people out of poverty than ANY OTHER SYSTEM in the history of the world.
I'm not saying that any other system is better.
I think capitalism IS in fact the best economic system.
My issues is that some seem to want to pretend that it's doesn't have internal problems of it's own that have to be regularly exposed and addressed.

You said that some companies are "taking advantage of it" (capitalism).
Yes exactly. Capitalism in and of itself is open to be taken advantage of.
It's FEATURE of the system.
If you've got a great car there's no problem saying it great, but if with it's power it's seat belts are crap and it runs hot after running at high speed for 100 miles. it's not something you ignore and start bad mouthing cheap motorcycles over.

just like we should not de-fund the police because there are bad actors on the street.
Seems to me the gov't has a role in policing capitalism to expose the bad actors in the market place.

Some Capitalism promoters seem to think capitalism is SELF regulating. Well it is .. to a point. but the problem of deception and outright harm to the public is clearly a constant feature of the system in practice.
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Job 14:6-8
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

Just for reference I apply Winston Churchill's quote about democracy
"...Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"
to Capitalism and to "America" in as well.

the only perfect government, economic system, nation, will be here we Jesus returns. Until then EVERYTHING and everyone is flawed to various degrees and subject to improvement and constant maintenance.
A critique from me does not mean that i "hate" or want to replace or abolish a group or practice.

Bottom line Capitalism has a dark and a light side.
and the only tool i see that can keep the dark side in check are personal morals and some gov't over site.
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Hope is the dream of the waking man.
Aristotle

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Just for reference I apply Winston Churchill's quote about democracy
"...Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"
to Capitalism and to "America" in as well.

the only perfect government, economic system, nation, will be here we Jesus returns. Until then EVERYTHING and everyone is flawed to various degrees and subject to improvement and constant maintenance.
A critique from me does not mean that i "hate" or want to replace or abolish a group or practice.

Bottom line Capitalism has a dark and a light side.
and the only tool i see that can keep the dark side in check are personal morals and some gov't over site.
…..back to the subject,,,;
The people responsible for the lies about recycling are the politicians who told us it was an attainable goal. And, without providing a true solution, challenged industry to make it happen. Then, adding insult to injury, created taxes for the purpose which were ultimately squandered on politics, not solutions.

I have been working for years on sourcing biodegradable materials for my packaging company. Last year we came incredibly close with overwrapping compostable paper spoons. The obstacle came down from regulators that the packaging materials now had to also be compostable. Not just recyclable but compostable. IE; despite years of research and development,,,; we had to start over.

For the record, compostable means it will have a short shelf life and need refrigeration. Defeating the purpose of packaging. Go figure!

Every time I get close, regulators move the goal posts.
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Old 09-15-2020, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled
...."I remember the first meeting where I actually told a city council that it was costing more to recycle than it was to dispose of the same material as garbage," she says, "and it was like heresy had been spoken in the room: You're lying. This is gold. We take the time to clean it, take the labels off, separate it and put it here. It's gold. This is valuable."
But it's not valuable, and it never has been. And what's more, the makers of plastic the nation's largest oil and gas companies have known this all along, even as they spent millions of dollars telling the American public the opposite.
NPR and PBS Frontline spent months digging into internal industry documents and interviewing top former officials. We found that the industry sold the public on an idea it knew wouldn't work that the majority of plastic could be, and would be, recycled all while making billions of dollars selling the world new plastic.
The industry's awareness that recycling wouldn't keep plastic out of landfills and the environment dates to the program's earliest days, we found. "There is serious doubt that [recycling plastic] can ever be made viable on an economic basis," one industry insider wrote in a 1974 speech.
Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true.
"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment," Larry Thomas, former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, known today as the Plastics Industry Association and one of the industry's most powerful trade groups in Washington, D.C., told NPR....
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/89769...=pocket-newtab
Capitalism?

What would help capitalist NOT lie to the public about it's products?
Especially if they are known to be dangerous to the environment or the public health?
Is this practice, (lying/misleading the public in order to sell more products despite the dangers) strange and uncommon among major industries/corps?

Should anything be done to companies for knowingly lying to the public in general?
I think you're addressing the wrong end of the stick. It's the buyers job to sort out the lies.

We do a lot. Prices/oz must be posted on the shelves, for instance. Do you read them? OTOH, when a product says 20% more, the question you should be asking is 20% more than what?

I was never fooled by the belief that non recycleable plastics would be recycled. We can barely economically recycle metal cans and newspapers.

For myself, I don't want the government doing my thinking for me.

Give me the facts, let me decide. I think government's job ends at giving me the facts.
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Old 09-15-2020, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
My issues is that some seem to want to pretend that it's doesn't have internal problems of it's own that have to be regularly exposed and addressed.
Which is no one..
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Old 09-15-2020, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I'm not saying that any other system is better.
I think capitalism IS in fact the best economic system.
My issues is that some seem to want to pretend that it's doesn't have internal problems of it's own that have to be regularly exposed and addressed.

You said that some companies are "taking advantage of it" (capitalism).
Yes exactly. Capitalism in and of itself is open to be taken advantage of.
It's FEATURE of the system.
If you've got a great car there's no problem saying it great, but if with it's power it's seat belts are crap and it runs hot after running at high speed for 100 miles. it's not something you ignore and start bad mouthing cheap motorcycles over.

just like we should not de-fund the police because there are bad actors on the street.
Seems to me the gov't has a role in policing capitalism to expose the bad actors in the market place.

Some Capitalism promoters seem to think capitalism is SELF regulating. Well it is .. to a point. but the problem of deception and outright harm to the public is clearly a constant feature of the system in practice.
The problems you highlight are not problems with capitalism per se, but by the actors involved. This is were an impartial and moral government is needed to play referee, to hold both sides accountable for their actions and promises. Capitalism without the rule of law will lead to thievery.
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To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead - Thomas Paine

A lie doesn't become truth, a wrong doesn't become right, and Evil doesn't become good, just because it is accepted by the majority. - Booker T Washington
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Old 09-15-2020, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
The problems you highlight are not problems with capitalism per se, but by the actors involved. This is were an impartial and moral government is needed to play referee, to hold both sides accountable for their actions and promises. Capitalism without the rule of law will lead to thievery.
All that is true. However, the real judgement of actions by corporate executives happens in the marketplace. Choices made by an informed consumer. Otherwise it is not truly capitalism.
An example of the pressure can be seen when a political party or subgroup calls for the banning of a company's products an/or services. Proof that it works well and fairly is Chick-Fil-E. Despite calls from radical anti Christian leftists, the consumers flocked to support the stores nationwide.
Th nature of good government is to prevent citizens from causing injury to each other. Thatis the purpose of laws and regulations. Otherwise, government should allow the free pursuit of industrial efforts at the will and whim of those who choose to pursue such efforts.

The failure, or success, of those endeavors should result from the acceptance, or rejection, of consumers. That is the true nature of capitalism.
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I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN, I AM A FREEMAN, THE DEMOCRATS WORST NIGHTMARE
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