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Economics Discuss A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment in m at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by AZRWinger Gates built a multi billion dollar company creating a handful of billionaires and over a thousand ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Gates built a multi billion dollar company creating a handful of billionaires and over a thousand millionaires. That is the measure of his skills and value to the company. Keep in mind Gates dropped out of Harvard to start the company. Gates was the one who convinced IBM to license the MS DOS operating system for its PC. It was Gates decision to open MS operating systems so independent application software developers could create systems based on it. After proclaiming the internet dead, Gates turned MS 180 degrees to embrace the internet. But hey, we should have government bureaucrats and politicians decide his compensation based on an arbitrary definition of fairness.

Using your same task standard the owner operator of a hot dog cart requires the same skills as Bill Gates. This is absurd. We have to allow the market to set compensation if we are going to have great new companies developing in the US instead of watching them spring up overseas.
Using the hot dog stand as an example comes from the same mindset as believing the Janitor at MS could run the company.

It jus' ain't so.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Gates built a multi billion dollar company creating a handful of billionaires and over a thousand millionaires. That is the measure of his skills and value to the company. Keep in mind Gates dropped out of Harvard to start the company. Gates was the one who convinced IBM to license the MS DOS operating system for its PC. It was Gates decision to open MS operating systems so independent application software developers could create systems based on it. After proclaiming the internet dead, Gates turned MS 180 degrees to embrace the internet. But hey, we should have government bureaucrats and politicians decide his compensation based on an arbitrary definition of fairness.
not arbitrary, it's based on the biz success... or failure.
All jobs compensated as the the boat rises or falls.
more efforts get bigger bonuses, effort that turns into more profits get bigger bonuses.


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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Using your same task standard the owner operator of a hot dog cart requires the same skills as Bill Gates.
where did i say that.
no where.
Where did i say that Gates shouldn't get a fat check for his work?
I specifically mention capitalization and organizational skills.
a minor league player is playing EXACTLY the same game as big leaguers. But running a hog dog stand and running a million mullion dollar corp is on a completely different scale.
you analogy is absurd and completely misses my point.
you've created a straw man to knock down.

my baseball analogy was referring to the janitor position and pay scale shifts based on the success of the biz.
not the CEO's.
You guys act like profit sharing is some NEW thing. it's been done and WORK in many businesses.

Quote:
We have to allow the market to set compensation if we are going to have great new companies developing in the US instead of watching them spring up overseas.
Profit Sharing IS market based. all people in company's fortunes rise and fall based on the MARKET for the products and services of that company.

the employees are incentivized to improve profits and cut cost at every level. making the company grow.
And BTW i did NOT say that the gov't should Mandate anything. again you've created a straw man to knock down.
Profit sharing is an innovative business option. that works.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I'm not sure what world some folks are living it but there are a lot more than 3% of people that work at basically minimum wage or below.

When i was laid off of my well paid high skill job of 30 years, 4 yrs ago, one thing i did was taxi cab driving. Some weeks i made LESS than minimum wage. and i wasn't the only driver with that problem. I tried other delivery jobs, same thing. Driving a bus for the handicapped, not commission work, but barely above minimum wage. At ALL of those jobs and more there were people trying to make it work usually simply by putting in the hours. (And in some cases demands by the employer to work OT or get fired from the crap paying job.) I've met trained nurses assistants doing in-home health making just barely over minimum wage. Same with Lifeguards, ski patrol, and other recreational protective service workers, Manicurists and pedicurists as well. And of course many cashiers , waitress and other food service jobs. Hotel workers are notoriously low paid often minimum wage or less, janitorial and some lawn maintenance services as well.

3% is a BS number, not reflexive of the real world.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/min.../2017/home.htm
From the BLS website,
Quote:
The percentage of hourly paid workers earning the prevailing federal minimum wage or less declined from 2.7 percent in 2016 to 2.3 percent in 2017.
I would also like to point out that this report only talks about hourly wage workers, when you include salaried workers the percentage at minimum wage will drop.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by Bat View Post
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/min.../2017/home.htm
From the BLS website,

I would also like to point out that this report only talks about hourly wage workers, when you include salaried workers the percentage at minimum wage will drop.
i still say those numbers are BS.

I can't say ALL that's wrong with those numbers but here's something to start with from the article you link to
"...The data are obtained from the Current Population Survey (CPS), a national monthly survey of approximately 60,000 households conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). Information on earnings is collected from one-fourth of the CPS sample each month...."

I suspect i could do a survey of the workers over 16 just in my city, population over 100,000, and get more accurate stats. And my city is doing fair to midland. with several large employers, some small manufacturing, some tech, and plenty of military work.

and as someone else pointed out.
minimum wage or a 50cent to buck50 more is about the same practically speaking.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
i still say those numbers are BS.

I can't say ALL that's wrong with those numbers but here's something to start with from the article you link to
"...The data are obtained from the Current Population Survey (CPS), a national monthly survey of approximately 60,000 households conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). Information on earnings is collected from one-fourth of the CPS sample each month...."

I suspect i could do a survey of the workers over 16 just in my city, population over 100,000, and get more accurate stats. And my city is doing fair to midland. with several large employers, some small manufacturing, some tech, and plenty of military work.

and as someone else pointed out.
minimum wage or a 50cent to buck50 more is about the same practically speaking.
You can call the numbers BS all you want to, but if you want to be taken seriously provide some actual facts to dispute them. So far, the best factual data I have is the bls.gov website.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
I have a suggestion. Let's remove the minimum wage as it is nothing but an artificial driver of inflation. It is a law that as Frank said, was meant to prevent the exploitation of child labor which is covered by other laws now.

Let the market set wages. If a company has a task to do that they feel is worth hiring someone for $5 an hour, let them offer it. If someone is willing to work for that wage, why should the government intrude to say you can't? Either someone accepts that wage or the company decides to either not fill it or raise the starting rate. Either way, it is a decision between the employer and employee.
If there was no minimum wage, employees would be more exploited than they are now.
How does a dollar an hour sound for a 45 year old fry cook? That's what you're talking about.
And no.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
If there was no minimum wage, employees would be more exploited than they are now.
How does a dollar an hour sound for a 45 year old fry cook? That's what you're talking about.
And no.
Once again, if that is what the market supports, that would be a fair wage. However, I don't believe that is where the market is.

The point that you are missing is that there may be jobs on the table out there that are not filled now simply because the potential employer does not feel the task they have is worth paying minimum wage for it. But if they could pay someone $4/hr to do it and someone was willing to do it for that price, why should the gov't say no?

By having the gov't dictate to the private sector a floor wage, that does nothing but drive up the price of goods and services which in turn, drives inflation. There is no tangible benefit from this as the goods and services that those at the lower end of the wage scale depend on also go up in price thereby negating any benefit from a wage increase they may see.

The only thing that is effectively helped by the minimum wage is the vote buying by the Democratic party that pushes it. It is used to prey on the half of the population that makes decisions on emotional basis instead of logically thinking through the unintended consequences of such policies.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:42 AM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
If there was no minimum wage, employees would be more exploited than they are now.
How does a dollar an hour sound for a 45 year old fry cook? That's what you're talking about.
And no.
If that dollar an hour fry cook feels like that is what he is worth and the employer agrees, then that is the market system at work.

If you are being exploited and are incapable of that there is a Wendy's across the street from where you work with a wanted fry cook sign in the window, then you are worth a dollar an hour.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
that's part of the problem i guess.

every one here agrees that the boss should get MORE. that's not a question.
and risking the Capital is an investment is an investment that should be compensated accordingly as well.
but we both know that if your a corporation that the risk are often born by the banks, and the owners are protected from personal capital loss by the corporate entities. so the risk are not as catastrophic as you seem to want to make it.

and as many here seem to be pointing out.
If you lose a job OR biz then well JUST get ANOTHER ONE.
don't be cry baby about it right?
Edit....

No, owners are not protected from personal capital loss if the business goes defunct. It's called equity. Someone, somewhere, had to of started the business, and their investment may have been cash, or sweat, or imagination, or material goods. All are an investment. The layout of the investments to grow into a business is a 'Business Plan', which you will also need to obtain money (bank or investor), explains the process of growth from idea to money, to production, to gaining a market, to expanding the production and market, to solidifying the position.

Banks do not lend a 'company' money without a personal investment, unless they have total disregard for rules. Kind of like loaning people money for houses that they have no (or insufficient) personal investment in, we've seen the results of that. Banks usually require collateral, and the physical and/or intangible assets of the company values usually need to exceed the cash provided from the financing. Sometimes, you can actually pledge assets twice, IF the funding source is willing to subordinate their loan once the original loan has started acquiring equity.

That all being said, profit sharing can be an incentive for an employee to remain with a company, but as a basis for the company to actually exist on a 'fairness' level? Not unless the 'employee' makes a monetary investment into the company, ie, buy 'shares'. The concept does exist in things like a co-op, but there still is, and always will be, an investment.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: A minimum-wage worker needs 2.5 full-time jobs to afford a one-bedroom apartment

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
that's part of the problem i guess.

every one here agrees that the boss should get MORE. that's not a question.
and risking the Capital is an investment is an investment that should be compensated accordingly as well.
but we both know that if your a corporation that the risk are often born by the banks, and the owners are protected from personal capital loss by the corporate entities. so the risk are not as catastrophic as you seem to want to make it.

and as many here seem to be pointing out.
If you lose a job OR biz then well JUST get ANOTHER ONE.
don't be cry baby about it right?





Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Edit....

No, owners are not protected from personal capital loss if the business goes defunct. It's called equity. Someone, somewhere, had to of started the business, and their investment may have been cash, or sweat, or imagination, or material goods. All are an investment. The layout of the investments to grow into a business is a 'Business Plan', which you will also need to obtain money (bank or investor), explains the process of growth from idea to money, to production, to gaining a market, to expanding the production and market, to solidifying the position.

Banks do not lend a 'company' money without a personal investment, unless they have total disregard for rules. Kind of like loaning people money for houses that they have no (or insufficient) personal investment in, we've seen the results of that. Banks usually require collateral, and the physical and/or intangible assets of the company values usually need to exceed the cash provided from the financing. Sometimes, you can actually pledge assets twice, IF the funding source is willing to subordinate their loan once the original loan has started acquiring equity.

That all being said, profit sharing can be an incentive for an employee to remain with a company, but as a basis for the company to actually exist on a 'fairness' level? Not unless the 'employee' makes a monetary investment into the company, ie, buy 'shares'. The concept does exist in things like a co-op, but there still is, and always will be, an investment.


I love listening to people who have never had to meet a payroll tell those of us who actually have, how it's done.
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