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Economics Discuss Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by GetAClue Exactly. And notice the number of prominent Democratic politicians that are now openly embracing Socialism. It ...

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Old 04-25-2018, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Exactly. And notice the number of prominent Democratic politicians that are now openly embracing Socialism. It is also being pushed in our schools and Universities. I saw a poll recently that said that a growing number of millennial's are in favor of Socialism. (Granted, they may not really understand that Socialism is form of government as my impression of our educational system is way below my expectations.)
Oh it's true that socialism has gained in popularity among millenials, and it's also true that capitalism has seen a decline. Probably has less to do with secret socialist agents in colleges, and more to do with that generation having to enter the greater economy and the job market when the Great Recession hit. That on top of having to deal with slow wage growth, lesser career prospects than their parents, the growing burden of an already massive student debt bubble, and the worsening gap in economic and income inequality.

And when we point out these real problems in the current economic climate, problems that don't just affect the younger generation, we get dismissed as being brainwashed by some socialist cabal of educators.

I'm not totally on board with a universal basic income even if I can see its merits, and I'm definitely no socialist, but maybe captialism needs to improve and market itself better should it want to maintain its lead in our marketplace of economic ideas.

Also I have yet to see some sort of growth among politicians pledging to seize the means of production lol. Some have moved left, but not near that extreme.
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Old 04-25-2018, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
If you want to provide any evidence that shows "The Left" had a "collective hard-on" regarding the Finland experiment, please provide it.

Otherwise, your response is a meaningless distraction. I never presented this forum as absolute proof. Simply an example of the reality of the situation.
Too many threads around here revolve around a strawman claim of what "the left" does and then a completely refusal to acknowledge how the author is simply latching onto individual examples.

You have heard of "proving a negative" before and the difficulties it entails, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
And you'll note that I did not like-thank-agree with the collective hard-on statement. Your statement referenced this forum, and I responded to that statement at face value.

I know all about 'proving a negative', but I don't find it applicable to this particular discussion.
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Old 04-25-2018, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
Oh it's true that socialism has gained in popularity among millenials, and it's also true that capitalism has seen a decline. Probably has less to do with secret socialist agents in colleges, and more to do with that generation having to enter the greater economy and the job market when the Great Recession hit. That on top of having to deal with slow wage growth, lesser career prospects than their parents, the growing burden of an already massive student debt bubble, and the worsening gap in economic and income inequality.

And when we point out these real problems in the current economic climate, problems that don't just affect the younger generation, we get dismissed as being brainwashed by some socialist cabal of educators.

I'm not totally on board with a universal basic income even if I can see its merits, and I'm definitely no socialist, but maybe captialism needs to improve and market itself better should it want to maintain its lead in our marketplace of economic ideas.

Also I have yet to see some sort of growth among politicians pledging to seize the means of production lol. Some have moved left, but not near that extreme.
I guess it is a matter of perception. It should be a mater of facts.

After generations of socialist propaganda, perhaps the support for capitalism has waned. Capitalism itself is not failing. The last 18 months prove that beyond doubt to most open minded observers.

Universal basic income is as big a lie to the working class as minimum wages. Based on the concept that standing in a bucket, and pulling up on the handle will raise your elevation. It simply raises the price of everything for everybody. It is why most socialist countries enjoy rampant inflation just before they collapse.

If your government treasury is filled by the taxed efforts of productive workers, in a productive economy, how do you fill those coffers when everybody stays home?

President Malcom said it today before Congress. "Freedom,,.. Democracy exists only when you have a healthy middle class." He did not say therefore everyone needs and income. He said everyone needs a job. To that he received a standing Ovation.

Even Democrats stood.
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Old 04-25-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
Oh it's true that socialism has gained in popularity among millenials, and it's also true that capitalism has seen a decline. Probably has less to do with secret socialist agents in colleges, and more to do with that generation having to enter the greater economy and the job market when the Great Recession hit. That on top of having to deal with slow wage growth, lesser career prospects than their parents, the growing burden of an already massive student debt bubble, and the worsening gap in economic and income inequality.

And when we point out these real problems in the current economic climate, problems that don't just affect the younger generation, we get dismissed as being brainwashed by some socialist cabal of educators.

I'm not totally on board with a universal basic income even if I can see its merits, and I'm definitely no socialist, but maybe captialism needs to improve and market itself better should it want to maintain its lead in our marketplace of economic ideas.

Also I have yet to see some sort of growth among politicians pledging to seize the means of production lol. Some have moved left, but not near that extreme.
Capitalism works every time it's tried. However, we don't have pure capitalism in this country, we have crony capitalism. Too many politicians greasing the skids for their donors.

Socialism on the other hand, is being promoted by the leftist college professors that more than likely, have never held a meaningful job outside the educational field and are teaching based on "theory". To them, Socialism is the be all, end all to solve the worlds problems as they seem to ignore it's failures in every instance it has been tried.

As for politicians promising to seize the means of production, look no further that Maxine Waters.

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Waters told the president of a major oil company to “guess what this liberal would be all about? This liberal would be all about socializing — uh, uh, would be about basically taking over and the government running all of your companies.” One renowned commentator, who said Waters made an absolute total fool of herself, points out that the congresswoman’s associates can be heard laughing in the video of the embarrassing exchange.
FLASHBACK: Maxine Waters Once Said She Wants To “Socialize” America’s Oil Companies (VIDEO) – American Lookout
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
As for politicians promising to seize the means of production, look no further that Maxine Waters.

FLASHBACK: Maxine Waters Once Said She Wants To “Socialize” America’s Oil Companies (VIDEO) – American Lookout
So did Hillary Clinton...

Just steal their profits and create a fund to destroy them...

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:49 AM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
Oh it's true that socialism has gained in popularity among millenials, and it's also true that capitalism has seen a decline. Probably has less to do with secret socialist agents in colleges, and more to do with that generation having to enter the greater economy and the job market when the Great Recession hit. That on top of having to deal with slow wage growth, lesser career prospects than their parents, the growing burden of an already massive student debt bubble, and the worsening gap in economic and income inequality.

And when we point out these real problems in the current economic climate, problems that don't just affect the younger generation, we get dismissed as being brainwashed by some socialist cabal of educators.

I'm not totally on board with a universal basic income even if I can see its merits, and I'm definitely no socialist, but maybe captialism needs to improve and market itself better should it want to maintain its lead in our marketplace of economic ideas.

Also I have yet to see some sort of growth among politicians pledging to seize the means of production lol. Some have moved left, but not near that extreme.
Socialism is not limited to government owning the means of production, it includes so-called societal control of business. Shortly after his election Newsweek ran an edition with "We are all socialists now" on the cover and a collection of articles inside praising Obama's fundamental transformation, to socialism, policies. Obama didn't disappoint with government takeovers of the auto manufacturing industry, healthcare and financial services. The claim that these actions weren't socialism because the Federal government doesn't own the business ignores the long history of socialist movements in the US from the New Deal where Federal bureaucrats dictated minimum prices and prohibited customers from selecting chickens to purchase to Obama's nationalization of automobile manufacturers to Bernie Sanders redistribution of wealth.

Capitalism doesn't need marketing, attention to results is sufficiently persuasive. Its critics are reduced to demagoguery along with the implication socialism will magically solve these problems. Of course the facts that taxpayers are on the hook for an additional $25 billion in national debt for the GM and Chrysler bailouts while foreign manufacturer Fiat acquired a dumping ground for debt at bargain basement prices isn't mentioned.

Socialism only has popularity because it sounds good, marketing. Capitalism only sounds evil if it is assigned blame for all problems and its performance is ignored.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Socialism is not limited to government owning the means of production, it includes so-called societal control of business. Shortly after his election Newsweek ran an edition with "We are all socialists now" on the cover and a collection of articles inside praising Obama's fundamental transformation, to socialism, policies. Obama didn't disappoint with government takeovers of the auto manufacturing industry, healthcare and financial services. The claim that these actions weren't socialism because the Federal government doesn't own the business ignores the long history of socialist movements in the US from the New Deal where Federal bureaucrats dictated minimum prices and prohibited customers from selecting chickens to purchase to Obama's nationalization of automobile manufacturers to Bernie Sanders redistribution of wealth.

Capitalism doesn't need marketing, attention to results is sufficiently persuasive. Its critics are reduced to demagoguery along with the implication socialism will magically solve these problems. Of course the facts that taxpayers are on the hook for an additional $25 billion in national debt for the GM and Chrysler bailouts while foreign manufacturer Fiat acquired a dumping ground for debt at bargain basement prices isn't mentioned.

Socialism only has popularity because it sounds good, marketing. Capitalism only sounds evil if it is assigned blame for all problems and its performance is ignored.
Let us not ignore the benefits of socialism include policies having nothing to do with "ownership " of the means of production. It also includes the means of reproduction and sanctioned death of the ill, the lame and the unborn.


The true evil of Socialism has names. Can you say Charlie Gard or Alfie Evans?
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Socialism is not limited to government owning the means of production, it includes so-called societal control of business. Shortly after his election Newsweek ran an edition with "We are all socialists now" on the cover and a collection of articles inside praising Obama's fundamental transformation, to socialism, policies. Obama didn't disappoint with government takeovers of the auto manufacturing industry, healthcare and financial services. The claim that these actions weren't socialism because the Federal government doesn't own the business ignores the long history of socialist movements in the US from the New Deal where Federal bureaucrats dictated minimum prices and prohibited customers from selecting chickens to purchase to Obama's nationalization of automobile manufacturers to Bernie Sanders redistribution of wealth.

Capitalism doesn't need marketing, attention to results is sufficiently persuasive. Its critics are reduced to demagoguery along with the implication socialism will magically solve these problems. Of course the facts that taxpayers are on the hook for an additional $25 billion in national debt for the GM and Chrysler bailouts while foreign manufacturer Fiat acquired a dumping ground for debt at bargain basement prices isn't mentioned.

Socialism only has popularity because it sounds good, marketing. Capitalism only sounds evil if it is assigned blame for all problems and its performance is ignored.
You have identified the difference between socialism and fascism. Ownership of the business by government is socialist, control of business through pricing, over regulation, etc is fascism.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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You have identified the difference between socialism and fascism. Ownership of the business by government is socialist, control of business through pricing, over regulation, etc is fascism.
Fascism is a variety of socialism distinguished typically by strong nationalism and militarism. FDR set up the NIRA headed by an army general noted for his authoritarian leadership style. Mass marches were staged featuring the stark image of an eagle head in profile. FDR denounced so-called economic royalists blaming them for the troubles of the working man. Before Pearl Harbor FDR was publicly opposed to any US involvement in European wars as he called them.

While FDR practiced a fascist style of socialism, contemporary Progressives advocate Federal government control over every aspect of business along with US participation in the global community as just another nation or as a previously rogue nation with a lot to make up for.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:32 AM
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Post Re: Finland is killing its world-famous basic income experiment

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
And you'll note that I did not like-thank-agree with the collective hard-on statement. Your statement referenced this forum, and I responded to that statement at face value.
It's a lesson I am eternally trying to learn to take things in context.

If John says something and I reply, I am responding to John's statement.
If I had been talking to somebody else, I probably would not have said the same thing...

Thread after thread around here revolve around bad stereo-types that blindly drive a wedge between the parties and make discussion stupid and pointless.
I've found it's impossible for me to discuss MY opinion on guns with people who want to assume I (or the monolithic left) want to take everybody's guns.
It's impossible to have a discussion about the actual topic of this thread when people blindly (and inaccurately) claim that the left blindly supports it.

And I think that's the point of some posters.
They do not want to actually discuss the topic. They simply want to demonize the other side.

When I first read the article I liked the following quote: "The new ’activation model’ law requires jobseekers to work a minimum of 18 hours for three months – if you don’t manage to find such a job, you lose some of your benefits"
That is something positive to me. I like that idea and would love to understand more about how it's implemented.

But it's impossible to have that discussion with people who are automatically assuming "the left" is the extremist view.


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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
I know all about 'proving a negative', but I don't find it applicable to this particular discussion.
That's because you're ignoring the statement I was actually responding to.
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