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Economics Discuss Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by AZRWinger The SCOTUS quote you claim justifies your position is plucked from a 1934 ruling where the ...

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The SCOTUS quote you claim justifies your position is plucked from a 1934 ruling where the Court overturned a Wisconsin law preventing foreclosures for 2 years. The crisis was the Great Depression. The ruling pertained to contractual rights.

https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/...n-v-blaisdell/

I could emphasize the rabid determination to attack Trump leading to plucking misleading excerpts from irrelevant SCOTUS opinions then trying to pass them off as supporting the attack but that would be engaging in the same hysteria.
The quote is a statement of a general principal of constitutional application universally. Trying to apply it narrowly to just that case is disingenuous. And itd be a FAR Easier to make the case that the drepression was a REAL "national security" situation.

But I could mention how you're desperate to denfend Trump and are looking for any and all loopholes real or imagined to try a justify his unconstitutional actions. And have avoided the main issue, and dodged the clear analogies presented in areas that you Would NOT want the same justifications applied.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
The quote is a statement of a general principal of constitutional application universally. Trying to apply it narrowly to just that case is disingenuous. And itd be a FAR Easier to make the case that the drepression was a REAL "national security" situation.

But I could mention how you're desperate to denfend Trump and are looking for any and all loopholes real or imagined to try a justify his unconstitutional actions. And have avoided the main issue, and dodged the clear analogies presented in areas that you Would NOT want the same justifications applied.
No, the SCOTUS excerpt cited has nothing to do with the President's authority to act in the interest of national security. It is absurd to claim a case dealing with a state's attempt to rewrite mortgage contracts after the fact is somehow defining a so-called universal principle is nothing but unsupported opinion. But hey, the stubborn repetition of naked opinion accompanied by hysteria. Despite repeated evidence of Congress granting the President authority to impose tariffs , not declare new law, the only response is bluster about the Constitution, speculative hypotheticals, and unrelated SCOTUS findings.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
No, the SCOTUS excerpt cited has nothing to do with the President's authority to act in the interest of national security. ...
Emergency does not increase granted power (ANY granted power of the constitution) or remove or diminish the restrictions (ANY restrictions)imposed upon power granted or reserved. The Constitution was adopted in a period of grave emergency. Its grants of power to the federal government and its limitations of the power of the States were determined in the light of emergency, and they are not altered by emergency.

the quote is stating a GENERAL constitutional Principal.

Now you would have point if the quote said something like.
Emergency doesn't increase MORTGAGE RIGHTS, or CONTACT LAW rights.
but IT DOES NOT.
the C.J. is setting forth the General principal by which the that case and ANY OTHER constitutional question turns.

C'mon dude, just Be real.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

Here are few more GENERAL statement made as result of SPECIFIC cases.

The Constitution is a written instrument. As such, its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when it was adopted, it means now. –
South Carolina v. United States, 199 U.S. 437, 448 (1905)

The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it. –
Felix Frankfurter, Graves vs. New York; 1939

"It may be that it is the obnoxious thing in its mildest and least repulsive form; but illegitimate and unconstitutional practices get their first footing in that way, namely, by silent approaches and slight deviations from legal modes of procedure. ...It is the duty of courts to be watchful for the constitutional rights of the citizen, and against any stealthy encroachments thereon."
— Justice Joseph Bradley - United States Supreme Court (1886)


Not sure who made this statement but it's generally true as well.
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest!"
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Emergency does not increase granted power (ANY granted power of the constitution) or remove or diminish the restrictions (ANY restrictions)imposed upon power granted or reserved. The Constitution was adopted in a period of grave emergency. Its grants of power to the federal government and its limitations of the power of the States were determined in the light of emergency, and they are not altered by emergency.

the quote is stating a GENERAL constitutional Principal.

Now you would have point if the quote said something like.
Emergency doesn't increase MORTGAGE RIGHTS, or CONTACT LAW rights.
but IT DOES NOT.
the C.J. is setting forth the General principal by which the that case and ANY OTHER constitutional question turns.

C'mon dude, just Be real.
Despite grandiose claims of universal principles the SCOTUS tailors it's decisions narrowly. This is to prevent "interpretations" where contract law restraints on state law are erroneously applied to Presidential national security actions. The Court is explicit when they create a broader precedent it is not a matter of using all caps and text color.

Again, four separate laws have been cited, the statute cited by the President and three others giving the President authority to impose tariffs not create new laws. The response has been bluster and bombast.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Despite grandiose claims of universal principles the SCOTUS tailors it's decisions narrowly. This is to prevent "interpretations" where contract law restraints on state law are erroneously applied to Presidential national security actions. The Court is explicit when they create a broader precedent it is not a matter of using all caps and text color.

Again, four separate laws have been cited, the statute cited by the President and three others giving the President authority to impose tariffs not create new laws. The response has been bluster and bombast.
Sigh--
Somehow I suspect that in your reading of the 2nd amendment and other parts of the constitution you tend to look at general principals and the clear language of various other SCOTUS rulings as being definitive and even general.
there's really no other honest way to approach the Constitution. It's a short doc. It's a framework that all laws fall under... are subject too... must align with.

But Hey, enjoy your ad hoc narrow style of interpretation where there are no general principals and some words of the constitution and SCOTUS only apply on the 3rd Tuesday if it's raining.
Many democrats interpret the constitution the same way. A "living" document and all. only means what they say it means... today.


So we'll just disagree then AZ.
But again, i hope you never whine the next time a Democrat CiC asserts that:
various laws, in combo with a presidential change in regs or executive orders simply override the plain text of the constitution.

There's nothing you've sited as justifying the Trumps actions that can't be repeated and applied on any other issue.
Tariffs, climate change, gun laws, immigration, drug laws, abortion, white collar crime, murder, robbery, terrorism, food regs, manufacturing regs, enviro regs, speech, surveillance, assembly, religion, private property, imminent domain, travel, taxes, health care, war, etc etc etc..

"national security" and a few random laws and BAM, Any president can make just changes.
AZ says that's always been "constitutional". Ever since the Barberry Pirates.


But to me, It's clearly just another lame and unconstitutional Presidential overreach of powers.
the constitution simply says.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, (tariffs) Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties (tariffs), Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
... To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;...

seems fairly clear to me that the President does not have the constitutional authority. Only the congress does.
But I'm told I'm reading and "interpreting" those few words with rabid grandiose hysterical bluster.


carry on

(constitution is pretty nice maybe some other nations would like to use it, we aren't anymore)
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Last edited by mr wonder; 03-22-2018 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Sigh--
Somehow I suspect that in your reading of the 2nd amendment and other parts of the constitution you tend to look at general principals and the clear language of various other SCOTUS rulings as being definitive and even general.
there's really no other honest way to approach the Constitution. It's a short doc. It's a framework that all laws fall under... are subject too... must align with.

But Hey, enjoy your ad hoc narrow style of interpretation where there are no general principals and some words of the constitution and SCOTUS only apply on the 3rd Tuesday if it's raining.
Many democrats interpret the constitution the same way. A "living" document and all. only means what they say it means... today.


So we'll just disagree then AZ.
But again, i hope you never whine the next time a Democrat CiC asserts that:
various laws, in combo with a presidential change in regs or executive orders simply override the plain text of the constitution.

There's nothing you've sited as justifying the Trumps actions that can't be repeated and applied on any other issue.
Tariffs, climate change, gun laws, immigration, drug laws, abortion, white collar crime, murder, robbery, terrorism, food regs, manufacturing regs, enviro regs, speech, surveillance, assembly, religion, private property, imminent domain, travel, taxes, health care, war, etc etc etc..

"national security" and a few random laws and BAM, Any president can make just changes.
AZ says that's always been "constitutional". Ever since the Barberry Pirates.


But to me, It's clearly just another lame and unconstitutional Presidential overreach of powers.
the constitution simply says.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, (tariffs) Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties (tariffs), Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
... To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;...

seems fairly clear to me that the President does not have the constitutional authority. Only the congress does.
But I'm told I'm reading and "interpreting" those few words with rabid grandiose hysterical bluster.


carry on

(constitution is pretty nice maybe some other nations would like to use it, we aren't anymore)
I note the absence of any further attempt to use restraints of the state to revise contracts as somehow definitive for the President's authority to impose tariffs on support of national security.

The second amendment is a negative right, Congress shall make no laws. But the injunction is limited to firearms and related considerations. It's not relevant to the President's authority to impose tariffs or a state barring foreclosures for 2 years on existing mortgages.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
I note the absence of any further attempt to use restraints of the state to revise contracts as somehow definitive for the President's authority to impose tariffs on support of national security.

The second amendment is a negative right, Congress shall make no laws. But the injunction is limited to firearms and related considerations. It's not relevant to the President's authority to impose tariffs or a state barring foreclosures for 2 years on existing mortgages.
I note the absence of you actually quoting the Constitution where the president is GIVEN authority to impose tariffs.

So if i'm reading you right, what your saying is that
the president isn't FORBIDDEN from imposing tariffs,
therefore he has the authority too so.
the left uses the same "logic".

And as I've said, if it's works for tariffs then it works for ALL other issues.
Also If you're going to be stickler for the details with that POV, the constitution/bill of rights really only forbids the congress from making laws restricting religion and free speech. It does not mention the Presidents authority, his making rules, regulations, executive orders etc.. or the courts making rulings... and if there's a "national security" issue well there ya go.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 03-23-2018 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post
he does. it’s called tariffs. this isn’t new. and likely won’t be his last push for tariffs.
I think we are so entwined in our trading practices it would be like reinventing civilization to try to fix it this way now.
Maybe something a bit more incremental...
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I note the absence of you actually quoting the Constitution where the president is GIVEN authority to impose tariffs.

So if i'm reading you right, what your saying is that
the president isn't FORBIDDEN from imposing tariffs,
therefore he has the authority too so.
the left uses the same "logic".

And as I've said, if it's works for tariffs then it works for ALL other issues.
Also If you're going to be stickler for the details with that POV, the constitution/bill of rights really only forbids the congress from making laws restricting religion and free speech. It does not mention the Presidents authority, his making rules, regulations, executive orders etc.. or the courts making rulings... and if there's a "national security" issue well there ya go.
The article I linked cited 4 legal means for the President to impose tariffs yet you continue to bray. Nixon, Carter and other past Presidents have imposed tariffs based on these laws yet they are unchallenged before the SCOTUS and Congressional opponent of Trump's tariffs attempted to pursue legislation to block them not a Constitutional challenge.

Still no explanation of how a state's lack of authority to block mortgage foreclosures is somehow applicable to the President's authority to impose tariffs. A simple declaration of so-called universal principle as if the wildly disjointed attempt to apply contract law to statutory authority, States to Presidents ought to be blithely ignored.
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