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Economics Discuss Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by FrancSevin Tariffs are how you have a successful negotiation. We have threatened them for decades and never ...

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Old 03-11-2018, 10:01 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Tariffs are how you have a successful negotiation. We have threatened them for decades and never put them in place. When we negotiated trade deals, that bargain chip was therefore useless.
And we got the bad end of the deal.

Really, there is an art to it. Read the book!
The problem is that it won't work as a negotiating tool for the US with China. China produces 49% of the world's mild steel but only supplies 2% of the US mild steel needs. We just don't purchase enough Chinese steel where the tariffs (that are paid for by US consumers and not the Chinese) will make any difference.

China's large market share of the world steel market also establishes the market price for steel and the US producers can't match that price. If we add a tariff on imported steel then it makes the export of goods produced with that steel non-competitive with the same product made in another country.

Tariffs are said to work by many economists but only if they're strategic in addressing specific and limited cases. Trump's tariffs are broad and cover all foreign steel (except Mexico and Canada). Strategic tariffs harm the other country's economy but not your. Broad based tariffs, like Trump is imposing, harm your own economy and not the overall economies of all the other nations affected. "Multiple nations" dilutes the effectiveness of the tariff.
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Old 03-11-2018, 10:25 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The problem is that it won't work as a negotiating tool for the US with China. China produces 49% of the world's mild steel but only supplies 2% of the US mild steel needs. We just don't purchase enough Chinese steel where the tariffs (that are paid for by US consumers and not the Chinese) will make any difference.

China's large market share of the world steel market also establishes the market price for steel and the US producers can't match that price. If we add a tariff on imported steel then it makes the export of goods produced with that steel non-competitive with the same product made in another country.

Tariffs are said to work by many economists but only if they're strategic in addressing specific and limited cases. Trump's tariffs are broad and cover all foreign steel (except Mexico and Canada). Strategic tariffs harm the other country's economy but not your. Broad based tariffs, like Trump is imposing, harm your own economy and not the overall economies of all the other nations affected. "Multiple nations" dilutes the effectiveness of the tariff.
Kind of like the automobile tariffs.
The EU has a 12% tariff on USA imported autos. The USA has a 2% tariff on EU imported autos. Perhaps the USA should should mirror that tariff for fairness.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Old 03-13-2018, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
From the NYT, so utterly lacking in respect for our President it refers to him as Mr.

Quote:
Mr. Trumpís authority to impose such sweeping tariffs stems from a Commerce Department investigation that concluded last month that imported metal threatened national security by degrading the American industrial base. The administration has said it wants to combat cheap metals flooding into the United States, particularly from China
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/0...p-tariffs.html

The Department of Commerce study, link to download in the article, concluded that foreign dumping steel and aluminum in the US market posed a threat to US national security. Contrary to the belief of Federal judges in the 9th circuit the President has the authority to act in the interest of national security.

As the study points out President's as far back as Carter have used the authority to impose tariffs and quotas to protect national security. Of course since it is President Trump taking the action the possibility of the US military having to depend on China for steel and aluminum is ignored in favor of hyperbole about Trump acting as a dictator.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
From the NYT, so utterly lacking in respect for our President it refers to him as Mr.



https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/0...p-tariffs.html

The Department of Commerce study, link to download in the article, concluded that foreign dumping steel and aluminum in the US market posed a threat to US national security. Contrary to the belief of Federal judges in the 9th circuit the President has the authority to act in the interest of national security.

As the study points out President's as far back as Carter have used the authority to impose tariffs and quotas to protect national security. Of course since it is President Trump taking the action the possibility of the US military having to depend on China for steel and aluminum is ignored in favor of hyperbole about Trump acting as a dictator.
"national security" the all purpose piss on the constitution card.

Hey AZ, i don't care if Carter, Clinton or either Bush did it. It's unconstitutional man.
I certainly don't care If the "Department of Commerce" says it's Ok.
Or if the 9th circuit says it is.
the Constitution says he DOES NOT have the authority, Period.
If it's a true national security issue BRING it to Congress. and let them do it.
They're pooping out various gun regs all of sudden when there's NO real emergency, if steel and aluminum are REALLY a national security emergency then they can get busy doing it.
But If not, then the president is just flat outta luck.
And If he imposes tariffs on his own non-authority, then Yes, ANY president is in violation of his oath, has broken the law and is in fact acting like a dictator, MAKING UP national laws on a whim. It was wrong when Obama did it with immigration law and his actions in Libya etc etc.. It's wrong now if Trump does it in any area as well. period.

Why don't people really want the presidents to STAY within their constitutional boundaries?

Every year for the past 20+ years i end up debating with republicans and democrats about some (SEVERAL) clearly unconstitutional actions that their guy has proposed but they someone want to make an exception them.
Both sides they'll "hold the presidents feet to the constitutional fire" but when push comes to shove they OFTEN align with man they voted for, and toss some part of the constitution under the bus.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
"national security" the all purpose piss on the constitution card.

Hey AZ, i don't care if Carter, Clinton or either Bush did it. It's unconstitutional man.
I certainly don't care If the "Department of Commerce" says it's Ok.
Or if the 9th circuit says it is.
the Constitution says he DOES NOT have the authority, Period.
If it's a true national security issue BRING it to Congress. and let them do it.
They're pooping out various gun regs all of sudden when there's NO real emergency, if steel and aluminum are REALLY a national security emergency then they can get busy doing it.
But If not, then the president is just flat outta luck.
And If he imposes tariffs on his own non-authority, then Yes, ANY president is in violation of his oath, has broken the law and is in fact acting like a dictator, MAKING UP national laws on a whim. It was wrong when Obama did it with immigration law and his actions in Libya etc etc.. It's wrong now if Trump does it in any area as well. period.

Why don't people really want the presidents to STAY within their constitutional boundaries?

Every year for the past 20+ years i end up debating with republicans and democrats about some (SEVERAL) clearly unconstitutional actions that their guy has proposed but they someone want to make an exception them.
Both sides they'll "hold the presidents feet to the constitutional fire" but when push comes to shove they OFTEN align with man they voted for, and toss some part of the constitution under the bus.
Overheated rhetoric and harping about the Constitution blindly are a poor substitute for actual consideration of the issue.

From the time of President Washington dispatching Federal troops to put down What's rebellion to Jefferson sending the Marines to deal with the Barbary pirates ending the US paying tribute to them, the President is given wide latitude for acting on behalf of national security. Yet somehow the Republic survives.

There is no question the production of steel and aluminum is necessary for national security. It follows the President's Constitutional authority allows them to levy tariffs to protect these domestic industries. Trump hating Senator Flake tried unsuccessfully to get Congress to block the tariffs. Like it or not the tariffs are Constitutional.

Obama's declaration of executive amnesty for so-called Dreamers is without national security consideration. An applicable parallel would be Obama's military intervention in Libya. The President was within his authority to commit the military. But, Obama openly defied the war powers act by continuing the deployment beyond 30 days.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Overheated rhetoric and harping about the Constitution blindly are a poor substitute for actual consideration of the issue.
Isn't that the same line Gun Control advocates use AZ?
Do we need to discuss any further if harping about the constitution is a problem for you?
Just tell me which parts of the constitution Trump is free to Ignore and which parts he can't.
To just FYI me and the rest of the country.

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
...the President is given wide latitude for acting on behalf of national security. Yet somehow the Republic survives...
uh no, the Presidents HAVE TAKEN wide latitude, and the Republic survives with a presidency that has far more powers than granted by the Constitution.
Quote:
...There is no question the production of steel and aluminum is necessary for national security...
Sure there is still a question, .
But that's not the question i'm really interested in. I'm interest in if "national security" is in the constitution giving ANY president the authority to MAKE TARIFF LAWS. ...Or make death plenty laws... or Change gun laws.. or put troops on the ground in Syria.
The honest answer is no AZ.
period.


I have to wonder if one could say that most of the right harp on "immigration law"?
or if the right thinks that "immigration law" in MORE important than the constitution today?
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
...
From the time of President Washington dispatching Federal troops to put down What's rebellion to Jefferson sending the Marines to deal with the Barbary pirates ending the US paying tribute to them,...
some detail on congress.. Jefferson Barbary pirates, constitution etc
https://www.libertyclassroom.com/warpowers/
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:03 AM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Isn't that the same line Gun Control advocates use AZ?
Do we need to discuss any further if harping about the constitution is a problem for you?
Just tell me which parts of the constitution Trump is free to Ignore and which parts he can't.
To just FYI me and the rest of the country.


uh no, the Presidents HAVE TAKEN wide latitude, and the Republic survives with a presidency that has far more powers than granted by the Constitution.
Sure there is still a question, .
But that's not the question i'm really interested in. I'm interest in if "national security" is in the constitution giving ANY president the authority to MAKE TARIFF LAWS. ...Or make death plenty laws... or Change gun laws.. or put troops on the ground in Syria.
The honest answer is no AZ.
period.


I have to wonder if one could say that most of the right harp on "immigration law"?
or if the right thinks that "immigration law" in MORE important than the constitution today?
Here is the explanation of the authority the Trump administration cited to impose the steel and aluminum tariffs.

Quote:
Trumpís White House cited Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962, a provision that gives the secretary of commerce the authority to investigate and determine the impacts of any import on the national security of the United States ó and the president the power to adjust tariffs accordingly.

In this case, Wilbur Ross, Trumpís commerce secretary, conducted an investigation, which Trump called for last April, into the impacts of steel and aluminum imports. That report was enough legal justification for Trump to bypass both Congress and the independent US International Trade Commission (USITC)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...riffs-congress

The article also cites other legislation that gives the President authority to declare tariffs.

Even the decidedly Left wing Trump hating Vox recognizes Trump's authority to impose tariffs but you'd rather bluster about so-called Constitutionality. Congress can strip the President of tariff authority at any time but it is silly to rail against his use of it as unconstitutional.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Trump says U.S. to impose hefty tariffs on steel, aluminum imports

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Here is the explanation of the authority the Trump administration cited to impose the steel and aluminum tariffs.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...riffs-congress

The article also cites other legislation that gives the President authority to declare tariffs.

Even the decidedly Left wing Trump hating Vox recognizes Trump's authority to impose tariffs but you'd rather bluster about so-called Constitutionality. Congress can strip the President of tariff authority at any time but it is silly to rail against his use of it as unconstitutional.
Congress can't legally edit or sede constitutional powers without an amendment.

Again I don't CARE what the Commerce Secretary, or an unconstitutional law in 1962, and certainly not what the folks at Vox think about why the constitution has been overridden.

Look, the Constitution isn't written mysteriously. it's fairly plain English.
Just like the he can't change the 2nd amendment, (the only part of the constitution some on the right really care about) Presidents just don't have constitutional authority to MAKE UP tariff laws.

But If you're fine with it, OK. Support your guy no matter what... rather than the Constitution. Sadly most people do. But I hope i don't hear you whine or bluster about Obama or any other president or congress person that sites a law ..old or new... or the Secretary of some Executive Dept ... or "National Security... or VOX .... or FOX... or CNN... as OBVIOUSLY overriding the clear text of the Constitution AZ.

If a law can written to cede the tariff power one can just as easily be written that gives the president the power to make up any other laws. immigration, gun, health, job, etc etc but NO WORRIES... Vox even said it's constitutional.
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