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Economics Discuss The Truth About the Economy at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Xcali Typical Conservative response, Change the subject when you know you have nothing to support your claims. ...

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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2012, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Xcali View Post
Typical Conservative response, Change the subject when you know you have nothing to support your claims. Reagan was one of the Worst things that ever happened to this nation, he brought us More Debt, big Deficits, and Trickle down economics that has never, ever worked. He lowered taxes up front and then slowly raised them back.. 11 times he raised taxes but conservatives continue to deny the history . it's a good thing the Government keeps records of what the President does, it helps keep some conservatives honest.

He also created more jobs in one month than Obama did in the last six months. And those were jobs that were added to the workforce in addition to existing jobs. Unlike the count for Obama who claims 4,000,000 jobs created, but neglects to mention that 4,300,000 jobs were lost in 2009 which was the first year of his presidency. There has actually been a net decline in total jobs since he took office. You use Bush's full 8 years for employment figures when you talk about his job creation. How about being honest and using the full 3.5 years of Obama's Administration?


You have it backwards.. His first 6 years was what destroyed the economy. He ran a Deficit in his first year, after inheriting a surplus... His spending started almost immediately when he gutted revenues in 2001 and didn't pay for them or offset them with spending cuts. he entered us into 2 wars on a credit card... and you have the audacity to say those were GOOD YEARS?

The country was humming. Unemployment was under 5% and everyone was making money. We had half as many people on welfare and food stamps and anyone who wanted a job had no problem finding it. Anyone who was working during that period of time will tell you they were much better off then then they are now.

Wonderful Conservative Talking points... All Bull****.

Look at the numbers don't take my word for it.

When Bush left office we were losing, LOSING 800,000 jobs per month.

Proof?

Under Obama we've had 27 straight months of Jobs gained.

Under Bush the Stock Market was near collapse,

Only when the depression hit. It reached a high of over 14,000 during his administration which was the all time high.

Under Obama the Stock Market has thrived....

And bounced around worse than a yo-yo.

Stocks - Bush vs. Obama - CBS News

Taxes are lower now than they have ever been, Yes Obama Actually Cut Taxes More. The difference is his tax cuts were not aimed at the filthy rich...

He kept the same tax cuts Bush put in. Revisionist history?

Under 8 years of Bush there was a total, a TOTAL of just over 4 million new jobs created... IN 8 YEARS....

Which includes the 2.6 million jobs lost the last two years of his presidency. If we figure like the Democrats do, we wouldn't count the bad years, only the good years. That would have meant 6.6 million jobs created.

Under Obama we are already over Bush's Total in just 3 and a half years...

I'll stop there to give you time to check the facts... Again, don't take my word for it and don't listen to your right wing sources, look up the facts and you will see were you have been duped into believing this nonsense.

Willard wants to go back to those same Bush Policies.. I for one Don't wish to re-live those 8 years of hell.
Once again, those same Bush policies. Mind telling us exactly which policies you are talking about?
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
Ok, let's talk about that some......


I think this goes back at least 20 years and both parties should be held accountable.......

That's my opinion......


Now, as far as Bush, lets discuss his warning Congress about Fannie and Freddie and what democrats did about those warnings.

~ For many years the President and his Administration have not only warned of the systemic consequences of financial turmoil at a housing government-sponsored enterprise (GSE) but also put forward thoughtful plans to reduce the risk that either Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac would encounter such difficulties. President Bush publicly called for GSE reform 17 times in 2008 alone before Congress acted. Unfortunately, these warnings went unheeded, as the Presidentís repeated attempts to reform the supervision of these entities were thwarted by the legislative maneuvering of those who emphatically denied there were problems.
The White House Warned Congress About Fannie Mae Freddie Mac 17 Times In 2008, Alone Nice Deb


Mikeyy, I don't recall Clinton or dems warning Fannie and Freddie do you.....?



Be honest.....
No but I also don't blame them for allowing the banks to bundle and sell bad loans that they knew were bad. The blame on Fannie and Freddie to me has been a way to avoid what was really happening in the banks. They were writting loans they had no intentions of holding. They didn't care if people were able to pay it back or not because it wasn't going to be their problem. That is where the real problem was.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
Well, that sounds exactly like Hannity, Rush and Beck.......

Same coin.....

Is that what you're aiming for......?
No I can't stand any of those guys either.
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
He also created more jobs in one month than Obama did in the last six months. And those were jobs that were added to the workforce in addition to existing jobs. Unlike the count for Obama who claims 4,000,000 jobs created, but neglects to mention that 4,300,000 jobs were lost in 2009 which was the first year of his presidency. There has actually been a net decline in total jobs since he took office. You use Bush's full 8 years for employment figures when you talk about his job creation. How about being honest and using the full 3.5 years of Obama's Administration?
Those 4.3 million lost go against the Bush record considering we were still under the Bush budget until the following year. It's always been that the first 6 months of a Presidents term is credited to his Predecessor, Bush doesn't get a pass because you want to blame Obama for his failures. The plain fact is that Since the Obama Stimulus kicked in we have had a steady ( yet Slow) upward growth. Going from a negative to a positive is growth... no denying that fact.


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The country was humming. Unemployment was under 5% and everyone was making money. We had half as many people on welfare and food stamps and anyone who wanted a job had no problem finding it. Anyone who was working during that period of time will tell you they were much better off then then they are now.
No Not everyone was making money.. The Corporations were, but everyone else was just getting by. Six months after Bush took office we started on a downward spiral and it didn't end until Obama came into Office. Sure Bush did a lot, He went on a spending spree and more than doubled our national debt. He turned a Budget Surplus into a Record Deficit. He passed the Patriot Act and trampled on the Constitution. He entered us into two Wars by Lying to Congress so he could be the tough guy. He passed several Programs that remain unpaid for. And then when the economy tanked starting in 2007 he drove unemployment through the roof and put 50 million more people on Welfare.... Good Times....


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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
Only when the depression hit. It reached a high of over 14,000 during his administration which was the all time high.
Wrong.. He had one small spike just after his tax cuts and then the market went backwards and ended at it's lowest point since the 1930"s.

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
He kept the same tax cuts Bush put in. Revisionist history?
And he lowered Payroll taxes by 2%, among other tax cuts and credits to help the Middle class. By the way, I disagreed with him on more tax cuts...


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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
Which includes the 2.6 million jobs lost the last two years of his presidency. If we figure like the Democrats do, we wouldn't count the bad years, only the good years. That would have meant 6.6 million jobs created.
It's a shame they don't use Republican Math though. The facts are the facts.. Bush had the worst jobs growth record of any Modern president... That's not my opinion it's just a plain fact.

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Once again, those same Bush policies. Mind telling us exactly which policies you are talking about?
Pretty much everything he did, the worst being the massive gutting of revenues and the spending sprees that are still not paid for.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2012, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Xcali View Post
No, I didn't separate the two, The TARP bill covered ALL the bail outs, of which the total balance remains 212 billion which has not been paid back. I don't care if Fannie and Freddie owe more, the point I was making is that a large portion of the Money which you originally said was mostly paid back was not in fact paid back. You can try to move the goal posts if you want but It won't work.



And all of the Auto Parts manufactures, and all of the small businesses associated with the auto industry, and all of the restaurants where Auto Workers spend their pay for lunch, and the list goes on. The Auto Bailout Worked, No matter how you try to spin it . Willard wanted to let the industry go belly up, but then again he was in the business of destroying jobs for 25 years so I can't really fault him for doing what he did best.
My goodness, what happened to the $66 billion you claimed was the outstanding balance? You are the one who complained Tarp hadn't been repaid and gave 2 banks as examples. When I pointed out the inaccuracy of your statement now you retreat to the total TARP outstanding balance while accusing me of moving the goalposts.

If we are discussing TARP repayment shouldn't we acknowledge the major contributors to the outstanding balance, Fannie, Freddie and the auto manufacturers instead of mindlessly blaming zombie banks we agree ought to be liquidated?

You are trying to create a false dilemma for the auto industry. Willard's position is that they should have been allowed to go through bankruptcy restructuring. That would have led to economically viable companies without taxpayers having to foot the bill for Obama's generosity to his UAW pals and Fiat. But Willard is just a turnaround specialist so what does he know. Certainly our President with his vast private industry experience as part time ice cream scooper and social justice lawyer knows better.

You complain about TARP funds not being repaid but claim the auto bailout was a success despite their billions in unpaid TARP loans. Please explain the contradiction and while you are at it tell us why Ford achieved profitablity without TARP money.
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Old 06-16-2012, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
My goodness, what happened to the $66 billion you claimed was the outstanding balance? You are the one who complained Tarp hadn't been repaid and gave 2 banks as examples. When I pointed out the inaccuracy of your statement now you retreat to the total TARP outstanding balance while accusing me of moving the goalposts.
Try to keep up will you?.. I never claimed 66 billion was the outstanding balance, YOU did. I clearly showed you from your own source where they estimated the total outstanding balance to be 212 billion. That covers the entire Bailout, including the Auto Bail out. I posted three examples, not a complete representation of all the banks that still owe Money. So the inaccuracy would b yours....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
If we are discussing TARP repayment shouldn't we acknowledge the major contributors to the outstanding balance, Fannie, Freddie and the auto manufacturers instead of mindlessly blaming zombie banks we agree ought to be liquidated?
I'm not the one blaming any Specific bank.. Like I said I posted three examples from a list of places that still owe money. In fact I never brought Fannie and Freddie into it , that was YOU . The only part of the bailout I agreed should have taken place was the Auto Loans.. they should have let everything else go belly up.

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
You are trying to create a false dilemma for the auto industry. Willard's position is that they should have been allowed to go through bankruptcy restructuring. That would have led to economically viable companies without taxpayers having to foot the bill for Obama's generosity to his UAW pals and Fiat. But Willard is just a turnaround specialist so what does he know. Certainly our President with his vast private industry experience as part time ice cream scooper and social justice lawyer knows better.
Willards postion was to allow the Auto makers to go bankrupt and liquidate , effectively ending the Auto industry here in America. At the time he never once mentioned a Structured Bankruptcy, he only just started saying that in an attempt to win back some voters in Michigan and Ohio who might actually believe his lies. And Willard is not a turn around specialist.. he's a business destroyer. His sole purpose over his business career was to Make Profits for his investors and he was willing to do anything and destroy anyone who stood in his way. He closed down more businesses than he helped open, and destroyed many more jobs than he created. He can't even be honest with himself, how do you expect him to be honest to you.

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
You complain about TARP funds not being repaid but claim the auto bailout was a success despite their billions in unpaid TARP loans. Please explain the contradiction and while you are at it tell us why Ford achieved profitablity without TARP money.
More than half of the Auto bailouts has been paid back . The Auto industry was saved by the structured bankruptcy and the money the Government loaned them. Ford didn't take part in the Bailout because they chose not to, but they benefited from the other companies turning things around all the same.

There is no Contradiction, I wasn't the one complaining about the bailout not being paid back, I was pointing out the fact to you that they had not been paid back after you mistakenly claimed that most of the money was returned. Again you try to move the goal posts...lol....

here, this way you can keep up with it and let me know exactly when Most of the money has been paid back....

http://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/...s/default.aspx
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Xcali View Post
Those 4.3 million lost go against the Bush record considering we were still under the Bush budget until the following year. It's always been that the first 6 months of a Presidents term is credited to his Predecessor, Bush doesn't get a pass because you want to blame Obama for his failures. The plain fact is that Since the Obama Stimulus kicked in we have had a steady ( yet Slow) upward growth. Going from a negative to a positive is growth... no denying that fact.

Absolute baloney. As usual, you change rules in the middle of the game and expect people to be dumb enough to believe you. Obama has had a net loss in jobs. Live with it.



No Not everyone was making money.. The Corporations were, but everyone else was just getting by. Six months after Bush took office we started on a downward spiral and it didn't end until Obama came into Office. Sure Bush did a lot, He went on a spending spree and more than doubled our national debt. He turned a Budget Surplus into a Record Deficit. He passed the Patriot Act and trampled on the Constitution. He entered us into two Wars by Lying to Congress so he could be the tough guy. He passed several Programs that remain unpaid for. And then when the economy tanked starting in 2007 he drove unemployment through the roof and put 50 million more people on Welfare.... Good Times....

Revisionist history again. The downward spiral didn't start until 2006 when the Democrats took control of both houses. In spite of the drag on the economy that took place from the 9/11 incident, Bush managed to reverse that and give us 5 good years. And if he lied to Congress, so did Bill Clinton and every member of his administration. They all said the same things about Iraq that Bush did. Have you forgotten about the 4 days of heavy bombing done by Clinton during the Lewinsky affair? 50 million people on welfare? This coming from a person who supports a president who has put more people on welfare than any other president? Good luck with getting anyone to believe that.


Wrong.. He had one small spike just after his tax cuts and then the market went backwards and ended at it's lowest point since the 1930"s.

So you are telling me the market didn't reach the 14,+++ level during the Bush Administration?

And he lowered Payroll taxes by 2%, among other tax cuts and credits to help the Middle class. By the way, I disagreed with him on more tax cuts...

He cut Social Security taxes at a time SS was struggling to keep up with it's obligations. That is beyond stupid.


It's a shame they don't use Republican Math though. The facts are the facts.. Bush had the worst jobs growth record of any Modern president... That's not my opinion it's just a plain fact.

He didn't have an unemployment rate above 8% for over 40 months like Obama has had. During the Bush Administration, the average unemployment rate was 5.3%, 3 full percentage points less than what it has averaged under Obama. Also, there are 88,000,000 people under Obama who are so discouraged, they are no longer looking for work. Imagine what the unemployment figure would look like if they were included.



Pretty much everything he did, the worst being the massive gutting of revenues and the spending sprees that are still not paid for.
The final 3 years of Bush's Administration, he was averaging about $2.5 trillion dollars a year in revenue. By any stretch of the imagination, how could you consider that gutting the revenue?
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:38 AM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Xcali
And Willard is not a turn around specialist.. he's a business destroyer. His sole purpose over his business career was to Make Profits for his investors and he was willing to do anything and destroy anyone who stood in his way. He closed down more businesses than he helped open, and destroyed many more jobs than he created. He can't even be honest with himself, how do you expect him to be honest to you.
You can't make a statement like this without offering proof. How about some facts and figures to back up this outlandish statement?
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
Absolute baloney. As usual, you change rules in the middle of the game and expect people to be dumb enough to believe you. Obama has had a net loss in jobs. Live with it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
Revisionist history again. The downward spiral didn't start until 2006 when the Democrats took control of both houses. In spite of the drag on the economy that took place from the 9/11 incident, Bush managed to reverse that and give us 5 good years. And if he lied to Congress, so did Bill Clinton and every member of his administration. They all said the same things about Iraq that Bush did. Have you forgotten about the 4 days of heavy bombing done by Clinton during the Lewinsky affair? 50 million people on welfare? This coming from a person who supports a president who has put more people on welfare than any other president? Good luck with getting anyone to believe that.
No actually you would be wrong, the downward spiral started when Bush passed his tax cuts and then decided to go to War.

Here, this might help you with the actual numbers of exactly who went on a spending spree. From the Tax Policy Center..

Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

Note the Deficits started in 2001.. not 2006. Note that Bush and his republican Congress are the ones who went on a spending spree while cutting revenues to levels so low they didn't have enough to pay the bills, this is where our Deficits come from.

It doesn't matter if Bush brought in 2 trillion a year in revenue, when he's spending 3 trillion a year or more he's creating deficits and running up the debt. Obama as well as anyone with a brain realizes that we need more revenue to pay the bills. You can cut every program , Eliminate Medicare , close down the EPA, the Department of Education, and Eliminate Welfare and You still won't be able to eliminate the deficits caused by the Bush Administration and his failed Policy.

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
So you are telling me the market didn't reach the 14,+++ level during the Bush Administration?
I never said that. He had a spike of 14,000 but how long did that last?. Nice chart, it shows very well the sharp freefall the stock market took under Bush where it bottomed out at around 6000. Oh , it also shows the steady GROWTH under Obama... Go figure , and you guys on the right say there is no growth.

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
He cut Social Security taxes at a time SS was struggling to keep up with it's obligations. That is beyond stupid.
I happen to Agree, it was a stupid Move. But no more or less stupid than the Bush tax cuts which he also extended , another stupid move.

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Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
He didn't have an unemployment rate above 8% for over 40 months like Obama has had. During the Bush Administration, the average unemployment rate was 5.3%, 3 full percentage points less than what it has averaged under Obama. Also, there are 88,000,000 people under Obama who are so discouraged, they are no longer looking for work. Imagine what the unemployment figure would look like if they were included.
Tossing his "Best" numbers while ignoring the bad is kind of lame don't ya think. Yeah, Unemployment was pretty low when bush took office, in fact it rose under Bush to get to 5.3. Clinton turned over 4% unemployment...

And Unemployment hit 10% shortly after Obama took office, do you really think blaming Obama for it will pass the Laugh test?. The man took over the worst economy in 70 years and you can honestly say it's all his fault?...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 40yearfan View Post
The final 3 years of Bush's Administration, he was averaging about $2.5 trillion dollars a year in revenue. By any stretch of the imagination, how could you consider that gutting the revenue?
And as I showed you in the link he was spending twice that much. That's the funny thing about taxes. Revenue to the Government is like you getting a paycheck. Without revenue the Government cannot pay it's bills. If there is a need for more spending then the government can't just create money from nothing and expect to keep a balanced budget. I consider it gutting the revenue because when the time came to increase spending he stood by his Tax Cuts and ignored what it would do to the economy. I also fault Obama for lowering payroll taxes, it was a big stupid move that he used for political capitol.

But this election is about who is going to be better for the economy, wouldn't you agree?.

In my view that man is not Willard Romney. He's talking about an additional 25% tax cut which would simply shift more wealth to the top while putting the final nail in the Middle Class Coffin. The Government is not a business and should not be run as a business. In fact the last two Presidents who were businessmen drove this country into a ditch. Hoover was a businessman and we can thank him for the Great Depression. W. was a businessman who bankrupted two oil companies and a baseball team before driving the economy into yet another Great Depression. I for one refuse to go back and re-live the last 8 years of Bush policies.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: The Truth About the Economy

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You can't make a statement like this without offering proof. How about some facts and figures to back up this outlandish statement?
The Proof lies with Willard. How many businesses does he talk about that he was involved in?. Oh I've heard him mention Staples... but he doesn't tell you the whole story there either. Like did you know that The Staples deal wasn't just Willard and Bain Capitol?.. Oh no,, they got something like 18 Billion in Government Subsidies to help turn staples around. Willard and Bain invested a few bucks and then walked away from that deal with 100 billion or so in profit. Most of the jobs he claims he created were created long after he was gone.

It's not an outlandish statement when it's truth. You have access to Google and other search engines so finding the truth about Willard and his record with Bain is fairly easy. He's a Venture Capitalists who 's job is to take investors money and make a profit. He's not a job creator .
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