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Economics Discuss The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by GottaGo Small 'correction' to your statement. Those that fall into the bracket of not paying federal income ...

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Old 10-28-2011, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Small 'correction' to your statement.

Those that fall into the bracket of not paying federal income tax, get something called an "Earned income credit" which MORE than offsets anything they pay in payroll taxes, and a portion of sales tax. So, effectively, they pay virtually no taxes.

Many more are on assistance programs that pay for a portion of their food and housing, which is paid for by taxpayers, so even less of their existance is paid for by themselves.

So penalizing someone who is successful is okay in your book? That a person who is able to make money is coerced into supporting other people?

If ALL people were required to pay in the exact same percentage of their earnings above a certain point, that would be 'fair'.
Besides the fact that you can't tax people who don't have anything to give. Someone who is successful benefited more from the social contract than someone who isn't. You have to pay taxes to live in a society that has laws, roads, police, firefighters, public education, military etc. Someone who is successful relies on others a lot more than say a homeless person who has no need for any of that.

I agree the tax code needs some major renovations, but until we address income disparity and why the wealthy continue to get wealthier while everyone else just sort of stagnates it won't mean a thing. If you want the lower 90% to pay more taxes then they should have a bigger piece of the pie.

If all it took was hard work to make it to the top I don't think we'd be even having this discussion. Americans are the hardest working people in the world, but they are just now discovering that they've been abused and sold out for greed.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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Someone who is successful benefited more from the social contract than someone who isn't.
False!...

Someone who is successful benefited through their own motivation and perseverance using the SAME social contract that someone who did NOT have that motivation and perseverance to succeed had...
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

The U.S. debt in terms we some can all understand

Fixed...
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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False!...

Someone who is successful benefited through their own motivation and perseverance using the SAME social contract that someone who did NOT have that motivation and perseverance to succeed had...
Even if you were correct, and all it took to become successful was motivation and perseverance your still ignoring how much the rich benefit from the social contract. First of all, nobody in this country became rich and successful on their own. Even Bill Gates moves his goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; he hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; he was safe in his factory and his home because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. He didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize every copy of Windows 95 and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Copyright laws protect his work all over the world.

The hard work and motivation cure is a myth. A myth that also whispers, of course, that the people who are out of work, losing their homes, or who are underemployed/underpaid are lazy. The real problem is a culture which has embraced radicalized, end justifies the means ideas about profit and unbridled greed. Greed that kills people. Greed that destroys the planet.

Our country is being governed by the money and for the money. This means, among other things, that regular people will now be accepting more and more hardship and risk in order to stay employed and fewer and fewer of us will be willing to speak up for fear of losing what little we have left. And that's why OWS is so important.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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Even if you were correct, and all it took to become successful was motivation and perseverance your still ignoring how much the rich benefit from the social contract. First of all, nobody in this country became rich and successful on their own. Even Bill Gates moves his goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; he hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; he was safe in his factory and his home because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. He didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize every copy of Windows 95 and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did. Copyright laws protect his work all over the world.
You seriously call yourself "RedState"???...

This is the EXACT SAME BS we recently heard from class warfare specialist and Democratic Mass. Senator-candidate Elizabeth Warren just last month...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Warren
“You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.”
Like you, she did NOT mention that "the roads and firefighters and police force" were paid for with taxes that he was paying BEFORE he became rich...he brought and paid for those roads and firefighters and police force as much as you or I...
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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Besides the fact that you can't tax people who don't have anything to give. Someone who is successful benefited more from the social contract than someone who isn't. You have to pay taxes to live in a society that has laws, roads, police, firefighters, public education, military etc. Someone who is successful relies on others a lot more than say a homeless person who has no need for any of that.

I agree the tax code needs some major renovations, but until we address income disparity and why the wealthy continue to get wealthier while everyone else just sort of stagnates it won't mean a thing. If you want the lower 90% to pay more taxes then they should have a bigger piece of the pie.

If all it took was hard work to make it to the top I don't think we'd be even having this discussion. Americans are the hardest working people in the world, but they are just now discovering that they've been abused and sold out for greed.
There is a line that has been crossed.... those who continue to work are now being drained of any risidual cashflow by increasing costs (brought on by inflation, but that's another thread) and additional taxation to support those who aren't working. You have obviously missed my other posts regarding paying for others what I/we cannot even afford for ourselves, but let me clarify. I don't object to paying taxes for communally used things, such as firefighters, roads and schools. I object when there are people using these same things who not only don't pay taxes, but get money BACK they didn't pay in.

You cannot make everybody 'rich', and the only way to eliminate the disparity is to make everybody poor. And 'they' are giving it their best shot to do so.

Businesses are paying rising percentages to State unemployment funds, reducing the cash a business has to pay employees with, yet unemployment payments get extended.

If this path is continued, the economy WILL collapse, and then they will have reached their goal of income equality = ZERO.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

If anyone thinks the rich has this money to balance this and shouldn't be done through cuts, then I fully expect them to go drumming with the rest of the dopes...
An analogy even Republicans can understand:

The "family" needs another source of income. An additional source. And meantime needs to quit robbing Little Johnny's college fund for dad's gambling habit.
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Old 10-29-2011, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

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An analogy even Republicans can understand:

The "family" needs another source of income. An additional source. And meantime needs to quit robbing Little Johnny's college fund for dad's gambling habit.
No, the family needs to change its spending habits, a budget rigorously enforced is an effective means of doing this. As long as they continue operate on the dynamic of spend 140% of income additional income only makes things worse.

I agree "dad" needs to stop gambling on things like Soilyndra with the household expense funds.
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Old 10-29-2011, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: The U.S. debt in terms we can all understand

Lets remove 8 zeros and pretend its a household budget.
Annual family income: $21,700
Money the family spent: $38,200
New debt on the credit card: $16,500
Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
Total budget cuts: $385

---

This family needs to cut up it's credit cards, balance it's budget, make serious cuts to spending and have more family members get jobs.

They also need to fire their financial planner.
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Old 10-29-2011, 04:51 PM
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No, the family needs to change its spending habits, a budget rigorously enforced is an effective means of doing this. As long as they continue operate on the dynamic of spend 140% of income additional income only makes things worse.

I agree "dad" needs to stop gambling on things like Soilyndra with the household expense funds.
It doesn't matter what kind of jam-up budget software I have; if I don't get a second job or talk the biggest eater in my house into bringing home some groceries, guess what? We will be bankrupt.
Guess what happened to America?
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