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The Constitution & The Judicial Branch Discuss Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump at the Political Forums; During his testimony before the House committee the special counsel held that his investigation of President Trump was a unique ...

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Old 08-29-2019, 09:03 AM
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Default Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

During his testimony before the House committee the special counsel held that his investigation of President Trump was a unique circumstance that allowed for the presumption of innocence to be discarded. This lunacy was largely obscured by Mueller's inability to answer simple questions about his investigation but it bears further explanation.

Quote:
Politicians who come under fire for abusing their office do not get a legal presumption of innocence. People only get the presumption of innocence if they are indicted and facing trial for crimes. The presumption of innocence is for criminal defendants, not presidents.

Don't just take my word for it, consider what the U.S. Supreme Court has had to say: "The presumption of innocence, although not articulated in the Constitution, is a basic component of a fair trial under our system of criminal justice." The Supreme Court treats it as "an element of due process."



Due process is a constitutional guarantee that applies when the government tries to take away someone's life, liberty, or property. Before the government can throw you in jail, for example, you get to be notified of the charges against you and you get a hearing to explain why the government shouldn't take away your liberty.
Resistance Democrats celebrated the more than 2 dozen indictments and a handful of guilty pleas from the Mueller investigation yet because the President cannot be indicted while in office he is not entitled to same presumption of innocence as the people swept up in the witch hunt for unrelated crimes.

A formal House impeachment inquiry is considered a judicial proceeding, that is what allows them to crack open grand jury testimony. But to the Resistance any protections for the target of their hatred are impediments to the pursuit of their predefined outcome to be discarded with nonsensical rationalizations like those presented in the article.

https://thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.o...apply-to-trump
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Old 08-31-2019, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
During his testimony before the House committee the special counsel held that his investigation of President Trump was a unique circumstance that allowed for the presumption of innocence to be discarded. This lunacy was largely obscured by Mueller's inability to answer simple questions about his investigation but it bears further explanation.

Resistance Democrats celebrated the more than 2 dozen indictments and a handful of guilty pleas from the Mueller investigation yet because the President cannot be indicted while in office he is not entitled to same presumption of innocence as the people swept up in the witch hunt for unrelated crimes.

A formal House impeachment inquiry is considered a judicial proceeding, that is what allows them to crack open grand jury testimony. But to the Resistance any protections for the target of their hatred are impediments to the pursuit of their predefined outcome to be discarded with nonsensical rationalizations like those presented in the article.

https://thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.o...apply-to-trump
The "presumption of innocence" has a very limited application and it's even more limited than most people seem to understand.

The "presumption of innocence" related to a crime only applies to those serving on the jury (or a judge is there's no jury) making a determination based upon a criminal prosecution in a court of law. The prosecutor certainly doesn't presume the defendant is innocent. If they did they wouldn't prosecute the case.

The "presumption of innocence" by the jury is based upon the possibility of the defendant losing life, liberty, or property if convicted of the offense.

Impeachment is a judicial proceeding but it's not a criminal proceeding. The accused is not deprived of life, liberty or property as a result of an impeachment. All they risk losing is a job they received by appointment.

Think of it this way.

Should any employer be required to prove that an employee violated the law before the employer can terminate the employee? There's no "presumption of innocence" in the Republican "Employer Handbook" when it comes to firing an employee.
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Old 09-01-2019, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The "presumption of innocence" has a very limited application and it's even more limited than most people seem to understand.

The "presumption of innocence" related to a crime only applies to those serving on the jury (or a judge is there's no jury) making a determination based upon a criminal prosecution in a court of law. The prosecutor certainly doesn't presume the defendant is innocent. If they did they wouldn't prosecute the case.

The "presumption of innocence" by the jury is based upon the possibility of the defendant losing life, liberty, or property if convicted of the offense.

Impeachment is a judicial proceeding but it's not a criminal proceeding. The accused is not deprived of life, liberty or property as a result of an impeachment. All they risk losing is a job they received by appointment.

Think of it this way.

Should any employer be required to prove that an employee violated the law before the employer can terminate the employee? There's no "presumption of innocence" in the Republican "Employer Handbook" when it comes to firing an employee.
In the alternate universe of the Resistance the presumption of innocence, an essential part of due process, can be written off by redefining it to exclude President Trump. Never mind Mueller's lynch mob explicitly included a list of incidents supposedly showing obstruction of justice so they could be prosecuted later. The special counsel conducted a 2 year investigation using the full powers of a Federal prosecutor along with the ability to recruit Federal district prosecutors as well as state prosecutors. The obvious intent is not to just impeach Trump and undermine the election, it's to put him in prison as an example to others who displease Democrats.
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

Actually, impeachment isn't even a judicial proceeding at all. Otherwise, it would be carried out by the courts, which are the judiciary.
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Actually, impeachment isn't even a judicial proceeding at all. Otherwise, it would be carried out by the courts, which are the judiciary.
Rule
6(e)(3)(E) provides in relevant part that the court “may authorize disclosure . . . of a grand-jury matter”
(1) preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding;

The House Judiciary committee argues that it ought to have access to the grand jury material gathered by Mueller's witchhunt pursuant to its judicial proceedings.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:08 AM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The "presumption of innocence" related to a crime only applies to those serving on the jury (or a judge is there's no jury) making a determination based upon a criminal prosecution in a court of law. The prosecutor certainly doesn't presume the defendant is innocent. If they did they wouldn't prosecute the case.
If the accused is presumed guilty, in other words, what would be the prosecutor's job?
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Rule
6(e)(3)(E) provides in relevant part that the court “may authorize disclosure . . . of a grand-jury matter”
(1) preliminarily to or in connection with a judicial proceeding;

The House Judiciary committee argues that it ought to have access to the grand jury material gathered by Mueller's witchhunt pursuant to its judicial proceedings.
The house judiciary has no judicial proceedings. Impeachment is not a judicial, but a political process.
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by loboloco View Post
The house judiciary has no judicial proceedings. Impeachment is not a judicial, but a political process.
The response to the rule cited in the House request to the court to open the grand jury testimony is... an opinion.

Presumably the House lawyers would not bother with a petition to the court so obviously flawed.
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Old 09-05-2019, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Should any employer be required to prove that an employee violated the law before the employer can terminate the employee?
It is an interesting question.

In some states--such as my own--which are "right to work" states, the employer may terminate an employee for any reason--or for no reason at all.

But that is not true in every state.
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is an interesting question.

In some states--such as my own--which are "right to work" states, the employer may terminate an employee for any reason--or for no reason at all.

But that is not true in every state.
All States and the Federal Government the legislature has the authority to remove any elected official or appointee for any reason (or even no reason) if they see fit to do so.
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