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The Constitution & The Judicial Branch Discuss Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by AZRWinger The response to the rule cited in the House request to the court to open the ...

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Old 09-09-2019, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The response to the rule cited in the House request to the court to open the grand jury testimony is... an opinion.

Presumably the House lawyers would not bother with a petition to the court so obviously flawed.
That's a Supreme Court opinion which establishes precedent under the authority of the US Constitution.
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
In the alternate universe of the Resistance the presumption of innocence, an essential part of due process, can be written off by redefining it to exclude President Trump. Never mind Mueller's lynch mob explicitly included a list of incidents supposedly showing obstruction of justice so they could be prosecuted later. The special counsel conducted a 2 year investigation using the full powers of a Federal prosecutor along with the ability to recruit Federal district prosecutors as well as state prosecutors. The obvious intent is not to just impeach Trump and undermine the election, it's to put him in prison as an example to others who displease Democrats.
The "presumption of innocence" has never applied anywhere except when it comes to a criminal prosecution where the jury (or judge) making the determination of the facts made that assumption. This is based upon the high burden for the prosecution to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to secure a conviction. The "presumption of innocence" didn't apply to Brett Kavanaugh during his Senate hearings and it doesn't apply to Donald Trump when in comes to impeachment.

The Mueller investigation presented the factual evidence related to Obstruction of Justice without making any determination as to whether the evidence established guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That can only be addressed based upon a criminal prosecution of President Trump after he leaves office.

Will Trump be prosecuted when he leaves office? Over 2,000 former federal prosecutors have stated he should be based upon the evidence in the Mueller Report. Those 2,000 plus prosecutors also stated they believe Trump will be found guilty and sent to prison based upon the evidence.

This has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans. If Trump goes to prison then it's because Trump violated the law.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The "presumption of innocence" has never applied anywhere except when it comes to a criminal prosecution where the jury (or judge) making the determination of the facts made that assumption. This is based upon the high burden for the prosecution to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to secure a conviction.
This is essentially true. (After all, before depriving a man of freedom, one should bend over backwards to see things from the opposite perspective.)

By extension, however, it would be rather gracious, I believe, to extend this presumption of innocence to others, not involved in a criminal proceeding.

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The "presumption of innocence" didn't apply to Brett Kavanaugh during his Senate hearings and it doesn't apply to Donald Trump when in comes to impeachment.
No, the hard left saw to it that the presumption of innocence was not granted to Brett Kavanaugh. (He was, after all...well, politically incorrect. Plus, he filled a seat that liberals felt that he had essentially "stolen"...)

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Will Trump be prosecuted when he leaves office? Over 2,000 former federal prosecutors have stated he should be based upon the evidence in the Mueller Report. Those 2,000 plus prosecutors also stated they believe Trump will be found guilty and sent to prison based upon the evidence.
This is the wet dream of the left. (Of course, it will never actually happen--any more than pigs will someday fly--but the left keeps holding onto the hope, anyway.)

In any case, you really should not want it to happen. To indict Donald Trump would, essentially, be to indict his supporters--figuratively speaking, anyway--and that would likely be the powder keg that would start a civil war.

Is that really what you desire?
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Why the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to Trump

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
That's a Supreme Court opinion which establishes precedent under the authority of the US Constitution.
Again you hacked up my comment to create a strawman you can attack. Dishonesty is the only response you can manage.
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