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The Constitution & The Judicial Branch Discuss Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4 at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by ShivaTD ROFLMAO I can see it now. The employee walks into the owner's office of a company ...

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Old 04-11-2016, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
ROFLMAO

I can see it now. The employee walks into the owner's office of a company that doesn't provide health insurance and demands company provided group health insurance or the employee's not going to come to work and stand outside and picket the company. We all know exactly what the owner would say.

"This will be an unexcused absence and after three days you will be terminated (FIRED)."

One employee has zero negotiating power with an employer. You can accept what the company offers or you can quit. There's no other options for an individual employee.

By analogy I don't care what the Bible has to say about David and Goliath because, in reality, David always loses the battle.
Funny, I've negotiated every salary and benefits package I've ever had, including the $hitty little car wash I worked at in high school. That's irrelevant however since, as I've reminded founditt several times, this thread isn't about "companies", it is about public sector.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4

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Funny, I've negotiated every salary and benefits package I've ever had, including the $hitty little car wash I worked at in high school. That's irrelevant however since, as I've reminded founditt several times, this thread isn't about "companies", it is about public sector.
So you negotiated a significant benefit such as health insurance or a pension plan when you went to work for a company? I seriously doubt that. You might have negotiated a few cents difference in your wages but that fell within the "market rate" for the job applied for but you never negotiated any significant benefits for yourself that weren't offered to other employees. I once tried to negotiate four weeks of vacation as opposed to the standard two weeks for a new employee with a company because I had 30 years of experience in the job position. The company paid tens of thousands of dollars to hire me in relocation benefits alone (at a substantial wage as well) but they wouldn't do that because "vacation" was based upon years of service for all employees. Instead they said I could take "excused time off without compensation" whenever I wanted so long as my manager agreed to it (that any employee could also do).

The public sector is the same as the private sector when it comes to negotiations between the union and the management. The management doesn't have to agree to anything as it always has the option of simply replacing the union workers when the contract expires.

If, for example, the Los Angeles Unified School District doesn't want to renew the contract with the teachers it can simply hire replacement teachers for any of the "union" teachers that decide to quit. The problem for the Los Angeles Unified School District is that it would probably cost far more to replace the existing teachers than agreeing to renew the contract with the union. Ultimately it's a financial decision by either the public or private entity that's negotiating with the union as to whether the conditions of the contract are acceptable or unacceptable. There's no real difference between the two because the contract is always based upon the mutual and voluntary consent of both parties.
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Last edited by ShivaTD; 04-12-2016 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
So you negotiated a significant benefit such as health insurance or a pension plan when you went to work for a company? I seriously doubt that. You might have negotiated a few cents difference in your wages but that fell within the "market rate" for the job applied for but you never negotiated any significant benefits for yourself that weren't offered to other employees. I once tried to negotiate four weeks of vacation as opposed to the standard two weeks for a new employee with a company because I had 30 years of experience in the job position. The company paid tens of thousands of dollars to hire me in relocation benefits alone (at a substantial wage as well) but they wouldn't do that because "vacation" was based upon years of service for all employees. Instead they said I could take "excused time off without compensation" whenever I wanted so long as my manager agreed to it (that any employee could also do.
While I have never needed to negotiate the existence of health insurance, your assumptions are wildly inaccurate. I have negotiated large differences in pay rate, amount of insurance paid by employer, and (funny you mention it) vacation. Just because you are not good at negotiating or lack the qualification to put you in a better bargaining position, does not mean everyone does.
Remember that $hitty little car and wash I mentioned earlier? There was one person there that got paid vacation. I also negotiated 2.5 times the standard vacation and a lower insurance premium with my current employer.
Maybe you better get your crystal ball cleaned.

As for your statement about public and private sector being the same when it comes to negotiations, if you believe that you don't have enough working knowledge of unions to continue this conversation.
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Old 04-13-2016, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4

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Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
While I have never needed to negotiate the existence of health insurance, your assumptions are wildly inaccurate. I have negotiated large differences in pay rate, amount of insurance paid by employer, and (funny you mention it) vacation. Just because you are not good at negotiating or lack the qualification to put you in a better bargaining position, does not mean everyone does.
Remember that $hitty little car and wash I mentioned earlier? There was one person there that got paid vacation. I also negotiated 2.5 times the standard vacation and a lower insurance premium with my current employer.
Maybe you better get your crystal ball cleaned.
I'm going to question this because it reflect piss-poor management by your employer. The idea that you, as an individual employee, irreplaceable and deserve superior benefits to other employees flies in the face of reality. All of us can be replaced as individuals so why in the world would an employer offer superior benefits to one employee when compared to another? Why wouldn't they just replace you with someone else that's willing to do the identical job for less? Bad management is the only excuse I can think of.

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As for your statement about public and private sector being the same when it comes to negotiations, if you believe that you don't have enough working knowledge of unions to continue this conversation.
The negotiation process is identical but there is a difference because public sector management and the union often assume that the "money is free" when, in fact, it's not. In the private sector both the management and the union are highly concerned about the enterprise being successful financially but when the funding of the "enterprise" comes from taxation both the management and the union tend to be less concerned about the costs of the compensation and the benefits.

So it's not the same in practice but it is identical in principle.

In any case no one is forced to join the union (and pay dues). Even with a "closed shop" contract the "pre-union contract" workers are not required to join the union and the "post-union contract" new-hires voluntarily agree to join the union as a condition of employment.
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"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:07 AM
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Default Re: Victory for Unions as Supreme Court, Scalia Gone, Ties 4-4

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I'm going to question this because it reflect piss-poor management by your employer. The idea that you, as an individual employee, irreplaceable and deserve superior benefits to other employees flies in the face of reality. All of us can be replaced as individuals so why in the world would an employer offer superior benefits to one employee when compared to another? Why wouldn't they just replace you with someone else that's willing to do the identical job for less? Bad management is the only excuse I can think of.



The negotiation process is identical but there is a difference because public sector management and the union often assume that the "money is free" when, in fact, it's not. In the private sector both the management and the union are highly concerned about the enterprise being successful financially but when the funding of the "enterprise" comes from taxation both the management and the union tend to be less concerned about the costs of the compensation and the benefits.

So it's not the same in practice but it is identical in principle.

In any case no one is forced to join the union (and pay dues). Even with a "closed shop" contract the "pre-union contract" workers are not required to join the union and the "post-union contract" new-hires voluntarily agree to join the union as a condition of employment.
So, employees are interchangeable cogs in the great machine of enterprise, there are no individual talents or initiative differentiating them. That is classic post industrial revolution thinking long made obsolete by a value driven economy. Unions are stuck in a bygone economic model where the employer is an adversary the union labor cartel must oppose lest it's members be exploited. As shown by Hostess, driven into bankruptcy by cost inflating union work rules, and GM with the highest labor costs of any auto manufacturer, the union's antiquated adversarial approach doesn't work.

People voluntarily join unions in the same sense that victims voluntarily hand over their wallets to a mugger. Pretending that an employer yoked to the union bosses can suddenly throw them off is inane. Conveniently ignored is the Web of government regulations granting unions special privileges put in place by the political pets of unions. A typical example is Obama's NLRB staffed with union lawyers and an union activist Secretary of Labor harassing Boeing for opening a billion dollar plant in an open shop state.
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