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Old 08-08-2014, 09:49 AM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

Have you ever seen a "snake ball?" They occur in lakes and rivers every spring as hundreds of snakes school tightly writhing aboutr all entagledsorta screwing each other.

That's what this is. only it is lawyers instead of snakes. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. But you know, some how, somebody, is getting screwed.
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Old 08-08-2014, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

Here's Judge Bates' order pdf. There is probably a mechanism for the DOJ to seek an extension for production of the index.

JW v DOJ 01510 | Judicial Watch
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

My question is why isn't Operation Wide Receiver also being investigated along with Operation Fast and Furious as both were operations under Project Gunrunner and both allowed firearms to "walk" across the US-Mexican border.

While Fast and Furious allowed more straw purchases of firearms the percentage of firearms lost was lower than Operation Wide Receiver. Wide Receiver only recovered 64 of 474 guns (13.5%). Operation Fast and Furious recovered 710 of about 2,000 guns (35.5%). The recovery rate for Operation Fast and Furious under Obama was over 2.5-times better than for Operation Wide Receiver under Bush.

So yes, the Obama Administration should be investigated related to the continuation of Project Gunrunner but so should the Bush Adminstration that started Project Gunrunner as both are at fault.

Why is the Bush Administration beging given a "pass" when it comes to this investigation?
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Old 08-09-2014, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
My question is why isn't Operation Wide Receiver also being investigated along with Operation Fast and Furious as both were operations under Project Gunrunner and both allowed firearms to "walk" across the US-Mexican border.

Well, the two operations are not equatable; Wide Receiver actually tried to track the weapons and the operation was done with the knowledge and cooperation of the Mexican Government. None of those conditions was part of Fast and Furious.


Operation Fast and furious completely reworked the investigative and prosecutirial doctrine for the ATF and US Attorney. It rendered impotent the ATF's primary objective, to investigate and charge Title 18 domestic purchase and transfer crimes and instead demanded that ATF ignore those crimes and bring the US Attorney evidence of Title 22 international arms trafficking (which is actually under the jurisdiction of the State Department and their enforcement arm, ICE and DHS).

It has never been established just who authorized this revamping and who ordered the State Department to stand down and who authorized ATF to investigate violations of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).
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Old 08-09-2014, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

What happens when you have everything indexed? It's easier to find?
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Old 08-09-2014, 02:15 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
What happens when you have everything indexed? It's easier to find?
The withheld documents must be justified and not just kept under a blanket of executive privilege. The documents not covered by EP could be turned over,
"thereby narrowing or perhaps even resolving the case".
It will separate out the documents that don't belong there in the first place.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

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Originally Posted by zoriolus View Post
The withheld documents must be justified and not just kept under a blanket of executive privilege. The documents not covered by EP could be turned over,
"thereby narrowing or perhaps even resolving the case".
It will separate out the documents that don't belong there in the first place.
It's already resolved. You are fishing. That's all. Fun to watch you guys waste so much time on it.
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Old 08-09-2014, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
My question is why isn't Operation Wide Receiver also being investigated along with Operation Fast and Furious as both were operations under Project Gunrunner and both allowed firearms to "walk" across the US-Mexican border.

While Fast and Furious allowed more straw purchases of firearms the percentage of firearms lost was lower than Operation Wide Receiver. Wide Receiver only recovered 64 of 474 guns (13.5%). Operation Fast and Furious recovered 710 of about 2,000 guns (35.5%). The recovery rate for Operation Fast and Furious under Obama was over 2.5-times better than for Operation Wide Receiver under Bush.

So yes, the Obama Administration should be investigated related to the continuation of Project Gunrunner but so should the Bush Adminstration that started Project Gunrunner as both are at fault.

Why is the Bush Administration beging given a "pass" when it comes to this investigation?
Mr. Horowitz devoted Chapter 3 to Wide Receiver in his IG report. ( DOJ investigating itself ). Holder wasn't "equating" Wide Receiver with F&F, but he was conflating. F&F had OCDETF designation with Group 7 and was run out of Dennis Burke's USAO in Phoenix.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/2012/s1209.pdf
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

So you're claiming that when we track and have the cooperation of the Mexican government but only recover 13.5% of firearms it's better than when we don't track and don't have the cooperation of the Mexican government but recover 35.5% of the firearms.

While I disapprove of Project Gunrunner completely I'd have to actually conclude that of the two different operations that Operation Fast and Furious was far superior to Operations Wide Receiver because of the significant difference in the recovery rates of the firearms regardless of why the results were different. Operation Fast and Furious was bad because 64.5% of the firearms were not recovered but Wide Receiver was far worse because 86.5% of the firearms were not recovered.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Withheld Fast and Furious Papers to be indexed

Lorren Leadmon testified that:

"The Fast and Furious case agents and managers continued the practice of not interdicting any firearms. Over the course of this investigation, the targets and associates of the Fast and Furious investigation have purchased in excess of 2,000 firearms. Our team identified a total of 34, .50 caliber rifles purchased by these individuals. Two weeks ago, the reported amount of firearms recovered stood at 590. There were 363 firearms, to include one .50 caliber rifle, reported seized in the United States. The vast majority of these firearms were recovered by other Federal, State and local law enforcement agencies at stash houses, while being transported to the border, while attempting to cross the border or at holding locations along the border. At the time, there were 227 firearms, to include five (5) .50 caliber rifles, reported recovered in Mexico. However, the number of firearms is continually rising. There are approximately 1,430 firearms, to include twenty-eight (28) .50 caliber rifles, in this investigation that have yet to be recovered. I am saddened by the fact that these firearms are in the hands of violent criminals. The vast majority of them, if not all of them, are in Mexico."

Interdiction is different than recovery. Leadmon emphasized the "practice of not interdicting". "The vast majority of these firearms were recovered by other Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies". Of course there were guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico identified through etrace.
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Fast and furious - Who is talking about Fast and furious on FORUM This thread Refback 01-28-2015 01:17 PM
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