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The Constitution & The Judicial Branch Discuss Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by foundit66 What the hell do you think you're talking about? The standard is consistent. It has nothing ...

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Old 12-09-2009, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
What the hell do you think you're talking about?


The standard is consistent.
It has nothing to do with "political correctness".

All people have to be eligible for membership in the school groups.
Consistent!

And without surprise, the rejoinder is to ignore the real issue (your money going to groups which preclude you from being a member) to instead attack a strawman argument (your money going to groups you don't approve of).

So tell me...
Should we have never adopted these standards for race issues the first time around?
Or is it just the existing standard being used for sexual orientation that you don't approve of?
First off, "sexual orientation" (which is a politically correct concept) can't be compared directly and accurately to race. The sooner the gay rights movement realizes that, the sooner a whole bunch of people will start taking them more seriously.

Lots of groups that preclude others from being members are going to get funded -- that's just the way it is. I doubt the gay and lesbian union would welcome a religious conservative with open arms. Nor should they be compelled to. And neither should the Muslim student union accept Christians as members, or vise versa.

You seem to be oblivious to the idiotic -- if not outright oppressive and dangerous -- precident this case could set. That's because your judgment is apparently -- and predictably -- clouded by another example of those nasty ole religious people being mean to gays.
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Old 12-09-2009, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
Seems simple. drop the discrimination or you cannot join. We wouldn't even be discussing this if they were trying to exclude blacks or women. Besides...
Christianity is not about exclusion and hate but inclusion and love. Christ didn't put people down because of their lifestyle. He hung out with wine bibers, dishonest tax collectors, prostitutes and the homeless.
So open the doors to complete non-discrimination for every group on campus?? Maybe we should stop the discriminatory practice of only allowing people with certain GPAs to be Honor Society members as well...
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Old 12-09-2009, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
So open the doors to complete non-discrimination for every group on campus?? Maybe we should stop the discriminatory practice of only allowing people with certain GPAs to be Honor Society members as well...
How about it, Salty? Open the Honor Society up to dummies?
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Old 12-09-2009, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

The problem here is that the Christian Legal Society (may) be opening themselves up to charges of hypocrisy if they do not oppose sin across the board! For example...do they accept unmarried and sexually active people into their club? Or...have all of their members taken an oath to sin no more? I suspect this club strains at a gnat and swallows a camel. I understand that this is not the issue before the court but I also scrutinize the spirit of our laws.

Do they "discriminate" against all sinners or do they "limit" it to just Gays and Lesbians who may or may not be "practicing" Gays and Lesbians!!!

If they limited their membership to just Christian non-sinners their membership would be "very" exclusive and very limited.

This group proclaims to be "followers of Christ".I wonder what he would say about all of this? I suspect that he would not turn these people away but take their request for membership as an "opportunity" to minister to them for they too are his children.

I'm not so sure the UC Hastings College of Law should be required to subsidize this or any form of discrimination,a discrimination case that seems so arbitrary and hypocritical where some forms of sin are tolerated while other sins are not tolerated.

Bottom Line:

We all discriminate as to whom we choose to associate with but nobody should be forced to cover the expenses and that should include UC Hastings College of Law!

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Old 12-09-2009, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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That's it in a nutshell. At the same time, I wonder how Christian students opposed to homosexuality feel about a portion of their fees going to a gay/lesbian group?
As long as the group doesn't discriminate, then it can be supported by "public financing". That's the basic gist. IF Christians want to discriminate they can do it on their own dime. Just like Homosexuals.
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:10 PM
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Post Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by mytmouse57 View Post
First off, "sexual orientation" (which is a politically correct concept) can't be compared directly and accurately to race.
That is your opinion.
Unfortunately for you, people DO think they deserve to be in the same category when it comes to a variety of situations like hate crimes legislation, employment discrimination protection, housing discrimination protection, etc, etc...
While there are obvious and undisputed differences between sexual orientation and race, there are also SIMILARITIES in the attempted discriminations which prompt some people to put them in some of the same categories...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57
The sooner the gay rights movement realizes that, the sooner a whole bunch of people will start taking them more seriously.

I'll take that under consideration.
But something for you to consider...
Considering you are in the minority opinion when it comes to issues like this one and hate crimes, maybe you should realize that there are more people who take the gay rights movement seriously than those who don't...

So maybe you should concern yourself over whether people take YOUR side seriously...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57
Lots of groups that preclude others from being members are going to get funded -- that's just the way it is. I doubt the gay and lesbian union would welcome a religious conservative with open arms. Nor should they be compelled to. And neither should the Muslim student union accept Christians as members, or vise versa.
You would be wrong about those things.
I also disapprove of gay and lesbian unions discriminating against people who are religious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57
You seem to be oblivious to the idiotic

You are quick to assign names like "politically correct" and "idiotic".
Perhaps you could spend more time on making an argument instead...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mytmouse57
if not outright oppressive and dangerous -- precident this case could set. That's because your judgment is apparently -- and predictably -- clouded by another example of those nasty ole religious people being mean to gays.
You can lead people to water, but you can't make them think...
What is it about THIS STANDARD HAS EXISTED LONG BEFORE GAYS that you can't grasp?
The precedent has ALREADY BEEN SET!

This same policy was first established in cases that tried to create school subsidized RACIST groups.
The real difference here is that you have a morality which is inclined to be sympathetic towards homophobes, but not towards racists.
You're in the minority in that thankfully...

When you can start addressing this issue for what it is instead of these pointless obfuscations of "politically correct", "idiotic", or strawman allegations regarding "nasty ole religious people", you let me know okay?
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:13 PM
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Post Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
So open the doors to complete non-discrimination for every group on campus?? Maybe we should stop the discriminatory practice of only allowing people with certain GPAs to be Honor Society members as well...
Well golly gee whiz...
We have a variety of lists regarding the bases on which discrimination CANNOT occur.
Like gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc, etc...

If YOU want to lobby to make sure that list includes "GPA", then go for it.


And on another level, a person can study hard and get a higher GPA to get themselves into an honor society.
As long as people cannot make themselves white or straight, your comparison is pointless.

But on another hand, since people can willfully switch religion, maybe you've got a point for removing religious discrimination protections, huh?
Would you support that?
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
So open the doors to complete non-discrimination for every group on campus?? Maybe we should stop the discriminatory practice of only allowing people with certain GPAs to be Honor Society members as well...
That is absolutely not an analogy of this situation.
An organization has a policy of non discrimination. They don't infringe here on the other group having a different policy. Only when that other group wants to associate themselves with them do they say ok we will let you in if you follow our established guidelines.

Say you are a farmer, you want to join a new organic association that is making money cause their logo means freshness to the consumer. You cannot put commercial fertilizer on your vegetables and still join that association. You must change a few things or they won't allow you to associate with them thereby putting their stamp of approval on your inferior product.
see?
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
That is absolutely not an analogy of this situation.
Its an exact analogy. The Honor Society is discriminating against stupid people who can't help how dumb they are. Why should they be allowed to do this? Discriminating against the clueless, who can't change how dumb they are, is as bad as discriminating against someone for the dolor of their skin. I don't know how the Honor Society got away with this blatent bigotry for so long without being noticed by the democrat thought police. Hopefully this disgraceful situation will now change and someday maybe even a moron will head the Honor Roll!
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Supreme Court will decide appeal of Christian student group

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
That is your opinion.
Unfortunately for you, people DO think they deserve to be in the same category when it comes to a variety of situations like hate crimes legislation, employment discrimination protection, housing discrimination protection, etc, etc...
While there are obvious and undisputed differences between sexual orientation and race, there are also SIMILARITIES in the attempted discriminations which prompt some people to put them in some of the same categories...




I'll take that under consideration.
But something for you to consider...
Considering you are in the minority opinion when it comes to issues like this one and hate crimes, maybe you should realize that there are more people who take the gay rights movement seriously than those who don't...

So maybe you should concern yourself over whether people take YOUR side seriously...



You would be wrong about those things.
I also disapprove of gay and lesbian unions discriminating against people who are religious.




You are quick to assign names like "politically correct" and "idiotic".
Perhaps you could spend more time on making an argument instead...



You can lead people to water, but you can't make them think...
What is it about THIS STANDARD HAS EXISTED LONG BEFORE GAYS that you can't grasp?
The precedent has ALREADY BEEN SET!

This same policy was first established in cases that tried to create school subsidized RACIST groups.
The real difference here is that you have a morality which is inclined to be sympathetic towards homophobes, but not towards racists.
You're in the minority in that thankfully...

When you can start addressing this issue for what it is instead of these pointless obfuscations of "politically correct", "idiotic", or strawman allegations regarding "nasty ole religious people", you let me know okay?
I'm no more sympathetic to actual homophobes than I am to racists. Both mentalities reflect hatred, which is really just fear turned outward. And fearing fellow human beings strikes me not only as wrong, but utterly ridiculous.

However, I also see attempts by the left to lump anybody who so much as raises an eyebrow toward the idea of the so-called normalcy of homosexuality in with racists as equally illogical and ridiculous. "Homophobe" is one of the most over-used and mis-used words in contemporary society. What we call "race" is simply variatons on the one race -- human -- that developed when our most ancient common ancestors moved out of Africa and began to migrate to different climate zones. Homosexuality manifests a set of desires and often resulting behaivor that many people question, for good reason, against standards of normalcy and morality.
Though I do agree with you that gays should recieve many, if not all, the same protections as other minorities, it's a more complicated issue than racism, sexism or other forms of actual bigotry. You seem overly-eager to simply ignore those complications, but they can't be ignored forever, and the issues surrounding gay rights are going to become increasingly hostile if the pro-gay left continues to try to lump everybody who disagees with the party line in with the likes of Fred Phelps.

Know this -- mess around too much with the First Amendment's protection of the free expession of religion, and find out just how many people are on your "side."

And that's what this boils down to, IMO.
I'm sorry if I use words that offend your sensibilities, but I belive in calling 'em as I see 'em. This is an idiotic idea, and it is grounded in political correctness. As much as you would like to insist the standard was already set, this case is breaking new territory. To be specific, groups that are religious in nature face the possiblity of either accepting things that run directly counter to their religion, or having their funding cut off. You can't seem to wrap your head around that, because all you can see is "discrimination."

But this case is at once both far more broad and quite a bit more subtle than trying to keep groups like, say, a hypothetical KKK student union, from letting black people join their club. (as if any blacks would want to join in the first place.)
And that has very profound, and disturbing, implications.

We're not talking fringe, extreme politics here, we are talking mainstream, orthodox and widely accepted and practiced religious beliefs.

And again, if you don't get the sinsiter implications of "go directly against your religious beliefs, or your funds dry up," then you clearly are not paying attention.
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