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Climate Change & The Environment Discuss The disaster called Green Energy at the General Discussion; https://www.westernjournal.com/polar...estern-journal Not only have freezing temperatures created an excessive draw on the power grid as residents struggle to keep warm, ...

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Old 02-16-2021, 11:44 AM
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Default The disaster called Green Energy

https://www.westernjournal.com/polar...estern-journal

Not only have freezing temperatures created an excessive draw on the power grid as residents struggle to keep warm, but generating electricity has also become a major issue for areas that rely on sources such as solar and wind power.


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In Texas, freezing temperatures and winter precipitation have caused some of the state’s wind turbines to seize up, costing 12,000 megawatts in power on an already taxed state grid, according to the Austin American-Statesman.

In addition, The Dallas Morning News reported that 2 million Texans did not have power Monday due to the stress on the state’s power supply and the necessary implementation of rolling blackouts.

TRENDING: Is the Dakota Access Pipeline Next? Experts Reveal What Will Happen to Food Prices if Biden Shuts Down This Pipeline


We obviously still have a long way to go before we are even CLOSE to getting rid of our dependence on Coal, Oil, and CNG.
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Old 02-16-2021, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

Actually, we have an alternative to oil, coal and CNG already. What we don't have is a willingness to use it. Wind and solar are not going to be the primary source of grid power in this country in our life times, the technology simply doesn't exist at anything approaching an economically feasible level. Nuclear power is currently (and in the foreseeable future) the only alternative for grid level power.
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Old 02-16-2021, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

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Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Wind and solar are not going to be the primary source of grid power in this country in our life times, the technology simply doesn't exist at anything approaching an economically feasible level.
95% with ya...

I'd like to add NIMBY...

Some of the best places for wind turbines to be the most efficient just happen to be places very populated or used by elitists who love the idea of green energy as long as it's maintained ELSEWHERE...

I'm re-reminded of Senator Ted Kennedy...


Wind Farm? Not Off My Back Porch

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March 30, 2007 — -- A major battle in the politics of alternative energy has moved to a final phase in Washington, and a senator named Kennedy with a waterfront view and a bone to pick awaits.

Friday was a good day for Jim Gordon, the man hungry to build America's first offshore wind farm off the Cape Cod coast.

The state environmental office -- one of a battery of local, state and federal agencies reviewing the project's permits -- ruled that his proposal to build 130 turbines in the waters of Nantucket Sound complies with the state's environmental policy.

Gordon and his Cape Wind project, which he says would generate 79 percent of the power for Cape Cod, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard, have been pitched in a series of regulatory battles since 2001.

Already, he has spent $30 million in pursuit of the renewable energy project, which he argues the nation desperately needs to help combat global warming and promote energy independence.

While there currently are no wind farms off American shores, they're a clean power source that have gained increasing acceptance around the world, perhaps most notably in Denmark.

...But another obstacle is a political heavyweight with a famous name, a local Cape Cod address and hardline opposition to the project.

U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy's primary residence is in Hyannisport, Mass., on the Kennedy family compound. It's one of the closest landfalls -- about 6 miles -- from the proposed site of the 440-feet turbines, which would be visible from his house as well as other surrounding coastlines.

Since 2001, there have been various legislative attempts to quash the project in Washington, many of which could be tied one way or another to the Democratic Bay State senator.

As the battle moves into its final permitting phase, Gordon said he holds on to hope that Kennedy -- typically known as an environmental advocate -- will alter his position.

"I'm hopeful the senator looks at this information and supports it," Gordon said Friday, a mild statement in what at times has been a testy exchange.

Critics argue that Kennedy's opposition has been rooted not in substantive arguments against the project's merits but in the proximity of his house to Nantucket Sound and his love of sailing. Simply put, critics, including Cape Wind, have accused Kennedy of opposing the project squarely for not-in-my-backyard reasons.
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Old 02-16-2021, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

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Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
Actually, we have an alternative to oil, coal and CNG already. What we don't have is a willingness to use it. Wind and solar are not going to be the primary source of grid power in this country in our life times, the technology simply doesn't exist at anything approaching an economically feasible level. Nuclear power is currently (and in the foreseeable future) the only alternative for grid level power.
I have heard, I don't know if it is true, that it takes more power and energy to make one wind turbine, than that Turbine will produce in it's lifetime.
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

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I have heard, I don't know if it is true, that it takes more power and energy to make one wind turbine, than that Turbine will produce in it's lifetime.
I don't know about that, but I have heard that the cost to produce a windmill is NEVER recovered from selling the energy that it produces. It it were not for government subsidies, they would never be built.
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Old 02-16-2021, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
https://www.westernjournal.com/polar...estern-journal

Not only have freezing temperatures created an excessive draw on the power grid as residents struggle to keep warm, but generating electricity has also become a major issue for areas that rely on sources such as solar and wind power.


Advertisement - story continues below

In Texas, freezing temperatures and winter precipitation have caused some of the state’s wind turbines to seize up, costing 12,000 megawatts in power on an already taxed state grid, according to the Austin American-Statesman.

In addition, The Dallas Morning News reported that 2 million Texans did not have power Monday due to the stress on the state’s power supply and the necessary implementation of rolling blackouts.

TRENDING: Is the Dakota Access Pipeline Next? Experts Reveal What Will Happen to Food Prices if Biden Shuts Down This Pipeline


We obviously still have a long way to go before we are even CLOSE to getting rid of our dependence on Coal, Oil, and CNG.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewals...h=29c08cb321b3
Almost half of Texas’ wind power capacity was forced offline last weekend after Arctic temperatures froze scores of wind turbines, leading some conservative commentators to pin the blame for the state’s widespread power outages squarely on wind energy.
In reality, wind turbine outages have been responsible for less than 13% of Texas’ total power shortages, the nonprofit electric grid overseer Energy Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) told Bloomberg and local news outlets on Tuesday.
Cold weather has posed a problem for all forms of power generation, not just wind, state officials say: Brutal temperatures have caused vital equipment at natural gas and coal-fired power plants (which account for far more of the state’s electricity than wind) to freeze up, and oil and gas production have been hampered by shutdowns at wells, while refineries across the state have closed down as well.


https://www.cbs58.com/news/texas-pro...nt-dark-anyway
Although some are attempting to pin the blame on one fuel source or another, the reality is that the Arctic temperatures are hobbling fossil fuels and renewable energy alike.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...g-power-texas/
The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT), which manages about 90 percent of the state’s electric load, said thermal power plants, which include gas, coal and nuclear, as well renewables have been adversely affected by the icy weather.
Surging demand for natural gas amid the Arctic blast is driving up prices and making fuel scarce, according to the grid operator. Gas utilities prioritize providing fuel for heating households ahead of selling it to gas-fired power plants.
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Old 02-17-2021, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

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I have heard, I don't know if it is true, that it takes more power and energy to make one wind turbine, than that Turbine will produce in it's lifetime.
If you don't know if it's true, why post it?

Spoiler: It's bullshlt.

Quote:
A 2014 study which looked at the same issue found that 2-megawatt wind turbines installed in Northwest USA paid for themselves in 5-6 months.

A 2010 analysis of fifty separate studies found that the average wind turbine, over the course of its operational life, generated 20 times more energy than it took to produce. This level was “favourable” in comparison to fossil fuels, nuclear and solar power.

Many wind turbines have a designed service life of 20 years, although the actual operating lifespan of a turbine can vary depending on the environment they are in, and the maintenance strategy applied to them.
https://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/

The attempt to blame green energy for the problems in Texas is similarly bullshlt. Wind turbines are freezing and unavailable, but the vast majority of the capacity deficiency is due to natural gas and coal plants not being available due to the weather/cold.

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“Low Supply of Natural Gas: ERCOT planned on 67GW from natural gas/coal, but could only get 43GW of it online. We didn’t run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don’t use cold insulation —so things were freezing.”

It’s estimated that of the grid’s total winter capacity, about 80% of it, or 67 gigawatts, could be generated by natural gas, coal and some nuclear power. Only 7% of ERCOT’s forecasted winter capacity, or 6 gigawatts, was expected to come from various wind power sources across the state.

Production of natural gas in the state has plunged due to the freezing conditions, making it difficult for power plants to get the fuel necessary to run the plants. Natural gas power plants usually don’t have very much fuel storage on site, experts said. Instead, the plants rely on the constant flow of natural gas from pipelines that run across the state from areas like the oil and natural gas-producing Permian Basin in West Texas to major demand centers like Houston and Dallas.
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02...rbines-frozen/

And the problem with the wind turbines freezing is not a "green power" problem, it's due to wind generation developers in Texas not planning for temperatures this low. Wind turbines that are properly winterized can easily function in the current Texas conditions. I drove from Wisconsin to Maryland on Sunday in single degree weather for much of the way and passed several operating wind farms.
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Old 02-17-2021, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
If you don't know if it's true, why post it?

Spoiler: It's bullshlt.
As the article you posted says, it depends on where they put them.

Quote:
“The concept of net energy must also be applied to renewable sources of energy, such as windmills and photovoltaics. A two-megawatt windmill contains 260 tonnes of steel requiring 170 tonnes of coking coal and 300 tonnes of iron ore, all mined, transported and produced by hydrocarbons. The question is: how long must a windmill generate energy before it creates more energy than it took to build it? At a good wind site, the energy payback day could be in three years or less; in a poor location, energy payback may be never. That is, a windmill could spin until it falls apart and never generate as much energy as was invested in building it.”
Other costs of wind turbines Mr. Hughes doesn't appear to add into the energy costs of wind turbines are the energy costs post production:
- Lube oil: Each gearbox of a wind turbine contains 60+ gallons of lube oil (depending on size). This lube oil must be changed regularly, then recycled or disposed of.
- Demolition costs: Wind turbines have a lifespan of approximately 20 years, may be more or less depending on conditions. Many wind farms are now exceeding their life span and those costs are coming to bear. 206 tonnes of steel that has to be transported and recycled using more coal coke and oil. But, the bigger problem is the blades. These are made of a fiberglass composite that, at this time, can't be recycled at a large enough scale. So, they have to be disposed of in a land fill. Being up to a hundred feet long transportation and disposal is very expensive.

I'd also add that Mr. Hughes' calculations appear to be based on wind turbines installed on land. When wind turbines are installed offshore the energy costs increase exponentially.
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Old 02-17-2021, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch907 View Post
As the article you posted says, it depends on where they put them.



Other costs of wind turbines Mr. Hughes doesn't appear to add into the energy costs of wind turbines are the energy costs post production:
- Lube oil: Each gearbox of a wind turbine contains 60+ gallons of lube oil (depending on size). This lube oil must be changed regularly, then recycled or disposed of.
- Demolition costs: Wind turbines have a lifespan of approximately 20 years, may be more or less depending on conditions. Many wind farms are now exceeding their life span and those costs are coming to bear. 206 tonnes of steel that has to be transported and recycled using more coal coke and oil. But, the bigger problem is the blades. These are made of a fiberglass composite that, at this time, can't be recycled at a large enough scale. So, they have to be disposed of in a land fill. Being up to a hundred feet long transportation and disposal is very expensive.

I'd also add that Mr. Hughes' calculations appear to be based on wind turbines installed on land. When wind turbines are installed offshore the energy costs increase exponentially.
great , that will keep oil companies from completely disappearing.
not near what it supplies in gas for cars but then lower pollution is certainly a plus.
Look, it takes a mixture of energy sources to keep up with our modern lifestyles. Or we could all have less children. That would be a big help but an individual choice so not practical unfortunately.
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Old 02-17-2021, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: The disaster called Green Energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
If you don't know if it's true, why post it?

Spoiler: It's bullshlt.



https://fullfact.org/online/wind-turbines-energy/

The attempt to blame green energy for the problems in Texas is similarly bullshlt. Wind turbines are freezing and unavailable, but the vast majority of the capacity deficiency is due to natural gas and coal plants not being available due to the weather/cold.



https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02...rbines-frozen/

And the problem with the wind turbines freezing is not a "green power" problem, it's due to wind generation developers in Texas not planning for temperatures this low. Wind turbines that are properly winterized can easily function in the current Texas conditions. I drove from Wisconsin to Maryland on Sunday in single degree weather for much of the way and passed several operating wind farms.
The point is....we are not ready to go Oil and Gas free, and won't be for a long time.

I would love to see a few of the anti oil and gas folks, go off oil and gas for a while and show us how it's done. Do you think they could make it more than one month before giving up?
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