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Climate Change & The Environment Discuss More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term. at the General Discussion; In fairness to Trump, coal has been in a decline for over a decade and there's little he could feasibly ...

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Old 01-03-2019, 07:38 PM
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Default More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

In fairness to Trump, coal has been in a decline for over a decade and there's little he could feasibly do simply for the sake of economics. Natural gas is comparatively much cheaper and cleaner, oil is experiencing a domestic supply glut and a rapid boom in exports (Thanks to a repeal on a export ban in 2015, thanks Obama), and renewable energies are getting less expensive all the time. Any regulations Trump cut or ignored mean little against the headwinds of simple market forces.

But then perhaps he shouldn't have made all of those promises to the coal miners. Simply not being Obama wasn't going to bring back coal.

Quote:
The last time U.S. coal consumption was this low, Jimmy Carter was president.

Despite campaigning on a pledge to save the dirtiest of fossil fuels, President Donald Trump has presided over a faster rate of coal plant retirements in his first two years than President Barack Obama saw in his entire first term.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) reports that while 15 gigawatts of coal-fired plants were shut down in Obamaís first four years, Trumpís first two years have seen some 20 gigawatts retired (with more than two thirds of those occurring last year).

As a result, U.S. coal use dropped 4 percent in 2018 to a level not seen since 1979, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

In fact, the EIA now projects that the decline in coal consumption will speed up in 2019 ó with power sector coal use forecast to drop a whopping 8 percent this year.

So what went wrong? After all, Trump had said he would end Obamaís supposed ďwar on coal.Ē

The answer is there never was any such war. The fundamental problem for coal was ó and still is ó economics, not politics. Indeed, as one leading industry analyst explained back in May, ďthe economics of coal have gotten worseĒ under Trump.

Coal power plants have simply become too expensive to operate compared to natural gas and renewable energy. Indeed, building and running new wind and solar farms is now cheaper than just running existing coal plants in many places.

Just last month, for instance, PacifiCorp, one of the biggest U.S. coal-burning utilities, reported that most of its 22 coal-fired plants are not economical.

The Trump administration itself is slowly waking up to this reality. Back in August, Trump traveled to West Virginia to tell supporters he had a ďmilitary planĒ to save coal power plants. But by mid-October, Politico was reporting that ďthe White House has shelved the plan amid opposition from the presidentís own advisers on the National Security Council and National Economic Council.Ē

Apparently they had no idea how to pay for the multi-billion dollar plan, and the most likely source of money was inevitably going to be U.S. ratepayers, especially in the red states that had the most uneconomic coal plants.

In terms of coal mining jobs, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports there were 51,000 when Trump took office, and 53,000 as of November 2018. Mining jobs have gone up slightly because the loss in domestic consumption was offset by a surge in coal production for export in the past two years.

But export growth may be threatened by Trumpís trade war with China ó and seems unlikely to offset the EIAís projected 8 percent decline in domestic use for power in 2019. So the outlook for coal jobs this year is not bright. To help, some companies, such as EnerBlu in Kentucky, are starting to train former coal workers to work in the renewable technology industry.

But coal also has another problem. While the administration is run by climate science deniers, including the president himself, the utility industry is increasingly reality-based.

ďIt seems that the utilities have embraced a carbonless future and proposed drastic emissions reductions,Ē coal industry expert Matt Preston told E&E News recently. Preston, who works for leading analytical firm Wood MacKenzie added, ďThat is a huge turnaround in thinking.Ē

In December, Xcel Energy became the first major U.S. utility committed to delivering 100 percent carbon-free power by 2050. It also promised an 80 percent reduction in carbon pollution (from 2005 levels) by 2030.

As Xcelís chief executive, Ben Fowke, told reporters at the time, ďThis risk of climate change isnít going away and we want to be the company that does something about it and hopefully inspire others to do something about it too.Ē

The bottom line is that U.S. coal powerís steady decline isnít slowing down under Trump and, if anything, is speeding up.

https://thinkprogress.org/more-coal-...-e6b72f354330/
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Old 01-03-2019, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

Quote:
Just last month, for instance, PacifiCorp, one of the biggest U.S. coal-burning utilities, reported that most of its 22 coal-fired plants are not economical.
But the answer may NOT be that simple...

Saying "it's not economical" makes the assumption that it's due to market forces or increased natural gas usage...That may not be true...

I'd like to know what regulations Obama put on the coal industry that would've caused a downturn...Remember Obama's very own words...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
“If somebody wants to build a coal-fired power plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them,”
After 8 years of attacks and deterioration of coal plants, it's stupid to think this industry could just come roaring back after just two years of a new president...I'm guessing it takes tens of millions of dollars just to restore coal plants to pre-Obama days and get them back to capacity...and against the bottom line, some companies won't feel its worth it...

Quote:
The answer is there never was any such war.
Now that's just ThinkProgress leaving reality to pretend it didn't happen...

Leftwing Time Magazine...2014...

New Carbon Rules the Next Step in Obama's War on Coal

Reading this link led me to a conclusion...

ThinkProgress ONLY pointed to closing coal plants during Obama's FIRST FOUR YEARS....

Yet this article shows that Obama revved up his war on coal in 2014...after he's already been in office SIX years...

ThinkProgress should be telling us how many coal plants were shutdown AFTER these new EPA regulations...THAT would be a better comparison...

In fact...I just did a little research...Here's what happened when these new regulations went into place...



32 coal plants shutting down with a possibility of 68?!?!?!?!...

That's sounds like a HELL of a lot more than ThinkProgress' phony comparison to Obama's first term...
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

coal fired power plant retirements are typically scheduled years in advance.
toledo edison was retired several years ago and we knew a few years in advance before it happened. they have since built a new natural gas power plant. which took longer than anticipated because of the backlash over the pipeline needed for its operation.
currently we haul coal for three coal fired power plants in michigan - river rouge, trenton and another one i can’t recall the name of. this is just in the area where i work. we actually built a whole new yard to accommodate the traffic knowing full well that beginning in 2020 those power plants will begin closing. i think the last one is supposed to close in 2026.
maybe we can start blaming whoever will be president then now for the closing.
damn that president


https://www.sseb.org/wp-content/uplo...-111d-8_14.pdf

NOTE: i keep saying “we” - i work for norfolk southern railroad.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

maybe we should make it easier to use more natural gas instead of try to sell it to other countries. money is not as important as warmth and eating.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
But the answer may NOT be that simple...

Saying "it's not economical" makes the assumption that it's due to market forces or increased natural gas usage...That may not be true...
I mean why wouldn't it be? We look at basic economic forces when it comes to any other industry, coal isn't special, and every industry has regulations. Much of the world is moving away from coal, even China is starting to decrease its production.



Forbes has a good article on the decline of green energy costs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominic.../#42bee9b64ff2


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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
I'd like to know what regulations Obama put on the coal industry that would've caused a downturn...Remember Obama's very own words...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfIfxmni_Eg
The spooky ad replayed a quote from Obama in 2008 describing what sounds like a carbon tax, something that didn't take off here.

So which regulations hurt coal energy that badly, and how can that damage be distinguished from the hit coal has been taking from market trends over the last few years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
After 8 years of attacks and deterioration of coal plants, it's stupid to think this industry could just come roaring back after just two years of a new president...I'm guessing it takes tens of millions of dollars just to restore coal plants to pre-Obama days and get them back to capacity...and against the bottom line, some companies won't feel its worth it...

Now that's just ThinkProgress leaving reality to pretend it didn't happen...
I'm not looking at this and going "WhY DiDnT DRUMPF SaVE CoAL?", nor am I blaming any president for the state of the coal industry today. I'm saying it couldn't be saved no matter who was president, and because of that he shouldn't have told all of those coal miners he was coming in to save the day. They're going to be the real victims of his false promises.

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
hahahaha leftwing

Also an opinion in Time doesn't stack up against a decade of real changes in the energy markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
ThinkProgress ONLY pointed to closing coal plants during Obama's FIRST FOUR YEARS....

Yet this article shows that Obama revved up his war on coal in 2014...after he's already been in office SIX years...

ThinkProgress should be telling us how many coal plants were shutdown AFTER these new EPA regulations...THAT would be a better comparison...

In fact...I just did a little research...Here's what happened when these new regulations went into place...



32 coal plants shutting down with a possibility of 68?!?!?!?!...

That's sounds like a HELL of a lot more than ThinkProgress' phony comparison to Obama's first term...
If you wish. Coal plant closures in Trump's 1st two years look very similar to Obama's last two years. In fact 2018 looks to be a record breaker.



And the funny thing is a majority of plant closures for 2018 were announced in 2017, after Obama left office and when Trump started to curb regulations on coal.

Quote:
IEEFA analysts expect actual coal retirements by that time to be "significantly" higher than their projection, as utilities are accelerating their plant shutdowns.

"Fully two-thirds of 2018's retirements were only announced in 2017, a clear indication that utilities have shortened their lead time before closures," analysts wrote.

As many other research houses have noted in recent years, the main culprit behind coal plant retirements is competition from cheaper natural gas and renewable energy, rather than environmental regulations that coal producers often criticize.

"[T]he competitive environment for coal-fired power in the generation marketplace is becoming ever more challenging as the price of renewables continues to fall and as natural gas prices are expected to remain low for the foreseeable future," analysts wrote.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/us-...-finds/540931/
And again, competition cited as the reason, not environmental regulations.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

fracking has been natural gasí best friend even though some wish to stop it.
luckily for the consumer itís mostly been taking place on private land.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...mic-sense/amp/

Quote:
A decade ago, however, technological advances gave birth to new and inexpensive means of recovering abundant oil and natural gas from shale rock formations. Directional drilling and hydraulic fracturing (fracking) advances unleashed an oil and natural gas revolution that transformed America into an energy superpower.
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Z81P7

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Because most fracking in the United States takes place on private land, the case had little direct effect on existing operations.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post
fracking has been natural gasí best friend even though some wish to stop it.
luckily for the consumer itís mostly been taking place on private land.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...mic-sense/amp/



https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0Z81P7
and we already have the world's largest known amount of natural gas.
I wish we would push the alternatives, use more natural gas, and save the liquid fossil fuel for autos
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Old 01-05-2019, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

You know who's really at fault


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Old 01-05-2019, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: More coal plants shut down in Trumpís first two years than in Obama's first term.

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You know who's really at fault


those tasty Canadians

*(when the aliens land we're all supposed to tell them we're tough but Canadians are tastier)
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