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Climate Change & The Environment Discuss Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by cnredd That argument is so misleading it should run for office... Your report is discussing car fires, ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-29-2016, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
That argument is so misleading it should run for office...

Your report is discussing car fires, but doesn't point out the MANNER of car fires...

Unlike electric cars, gas-powered cars have to have some sort of damage FIRST to catch on fire...

...whereas electric cars are catching on fire FOR two reasons...

1) Design flaw

2) The batteries are much more dangerous

Gas-powered cars do NOT catch fire when all parts are working they way they were designed, but electric cars DO...They are catching fire while the cars aren't even running and are unattended...
Have you ever seen a Ford Pinto? It's not like gas car are the end all and be all of design. WHether gas, hybrid or electric they all have design issues. Maybe some of these will ring a bell

Takata faulty airbags
2017 Ford Super Duty trucks recalled because the fuel tank could fall off
VW diesel
BMW recalls 5 Series, 6 Series, X5, and X6 models for fuel leaks
Subaru recalls 100K turbocharged models for fire risk
Volkswagen Group recalls 281,505 VWs and Audis for fuel leaks
Nissan recalls 134,000 Maxima and Murano models due to fire risk

Its not just electric cars that will kill you due to design flaw and really they are not any more likely or unlikely to catch fire are a gas powered equivalent.

Its just a bad idea to replace your current car with an electric car if you already have a car in good repair that is running efficiently.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
We weren't discussing gas cars.

I'm still not.
Actually if we all have watch the original post, what we are talking about is why its a bad idea to replace your perfectly good car that doesn't need replacing with an electric, so from that then we are talking about gas powered cars.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
I know the right is conditioned to hate anything that is supposed to be green so they will all trash the cars. For me? My friend has one of the first Tesla sports cars. I drive it whenever I am in Los Angeles. It is a kick in the ass to drive. 0-60 in 6 seconds. Silently. I like them and I would love to see more. For one thing they almost never break down. And almost not motor noise. And not stink. So I support them.
There is nothing wrong with having one, but owning an electric car isn't the point. The point is that they just are not as green as the myth would have you believe, and that the electric car are not what will reduce your carbon footprint, changing your behavior is what is needed.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
People buying them for cool is just one factor. Add to that the initial cost, the lack of range for anything other than local driving. The lengthy time for refueling, the environmental cost of producing and transporting electricity, and the subsidies paid by the taxpayers, and they make little sense.
Its not about the money, its already accepted that if you can but a new Tesla you have money, my point and the point of the video is not that is a bad car because of range, cost or the political debate of subsidies. The point is that replacing your current car to an electric just because its electric and your current one is gas is not a environmentally sounds move if your doing it to reduce your carbon footprint.

Both sides are trying hard to change that facts with their bias. The right wants to make electric cars look worse that gas powered and well they are not, and depending on your driving habits electric might be a better fit for you. The left is trying to discount the electric cars real carbon impact because it goes against their dogma that if it doesn't burn gas then its got to be better for the environment, and again that's just not the case. At this time they are no better and no worse for the environment than a gas powered car.
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Old 12-29-2016, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by Mellon_Collie View Post
Its not about the money, its already accepted that if you can but a new Tesla you have money, my point and the point of the video is not that is a bad car because of range, cost or the political debate of subsidies. The point is that replacing your current car to an electric just because its electric and your current one is gas is not a environmentally sounds move if your doing it to reduce your carbon footprint.

Both sides are trying hard to change that facts with their bias. The right wants to make electric cars look worse that gas powered and well they are not, and depending on your driving habits electric might be a better fit for you. The left is trying to discount the electric cars real carbon impact because it goes against their dogma that if it doesn't burn gas then its got to be better for the environment, and again that's just not the case. At this time they are no better and no worse for the environment than a gas powered car.
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Old 12-29-2016, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

Ok, your first source mostly contradicts what you said. You seem to want to make it into a black or white issue when its not. It states that Using coal powered electricity, electric cars do nothing to cut emissions, but using natural gas electricity they’re like a top hybrid and better than ICE vehicles, and using low carbon power they result in less than half the total emissions of the best combustion vehicle, manufacturing included.

So the issue is then with coal power plants, not the electric cars themselves. Places like California that lead the way in clean energy driving electric saves energy and pollution. But in coal country in the north east it would be worse than an ICE car. I get your point, but its not as cut and dry as you made it seem.


This source again seems to contradict what you are saying:

"Of course, gasoline doesn’t exist in a vacuum, either: Refining, processing, and transporting gas add*emissions that car owners must factor into their overall carbon footprint, the so-called “well-to-wheel” tally. It takes as much energy to produce a gallon of gasoline as a Model S consumes in 20 miles of driving, according to Department of Energy data.*When you add all those extra expenditures up, “an electric car like the Model S has almost*four*times lower CO2 per mile than an equivalent gas-powered car,” says*a Tesla spokesperson. So while the emissions argument is tantalizing for gas guzzlers, the average numbers still come out in favor of electric vehicles."

It continues on to say:

"“We’re shifting pollution, and in the process we’re hoping that it doesn’t have the environmental impact,” says Abraham. He believes that when you add all the environmental impacts, they still come out in favor of electric vehicles. (The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life.) "


This is basically the same study that was used in your first source. Again this seams like an argument against coal power plants not Electric cars.


Im not a fan of attacking the messenger, but this is such a ridiculously biased source, you should be ashamed of using it as if it were a serious article. Neverthelesss..... It takes its source for the article from newsmax, which uses for its source a "A segment on Canada's CBC Radio show "The Current". Which uses for its source a study form nature.com, which just reiterates what your previous sources said, including this,

"The key to making green technology initiatives more effective is to produce our electricity from cleaner sources. A new study released last week shows Canada is capable of shifting all of its electricity production to renewable sources by 2035."

So not really an attack on the electric car as much as it is on dirty energy.

Again more of the same,

"But an important debate has sprung up: How green are plug-in electrics like the Leaf (pictured here) when the power plants generating their charge may be fueled by coal or other polluting fuels?

The short answer: It depends where you live and how power is generated there (see details below)."


it does say:

For climate impact, check your power source. Indiana and Kentucky, for example, get at least 90% of their electricity from heavily-polluting coal plants. But California, one state where the Leaf and Volt will be sold initially, has reduced its coal generating to 1% of the total power generated , with 48% of that power in low-emission natural gas and the balance from no-emission hydroelectric, nuclear, wind and solar generation. To see the power plant balance in your area, go to the web site of Get Energy Active and click on your home state.


I understand what you are saying, but I think its misleading to say that electric cars aren't better for the environment than ICE vehicles. When they clearly are in many instances.

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Not enough,,,,? I got more
Nope not enough.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by RedState View Post

I understand what you are saying, but I think its misleading to say that electric cars aren't better for the environment than ICE vehicles. When they clearly are in many instances.



Nope not enough.
This is your opinion and that's okay. But it doesn't correlate with the facts at hand. The power loss alone from remote source transmission makes current electric cars an inefficient use of any method of power generation.

What energy it takes to produce the components in manufacturing again exceeds standard vehicle production.

These are hard facts and at best make the EV auto no more green than an efficient gasoline vehicle of the same range, power and passenger capacity.

Here's more. Keep in mind before you quote excerpts, that as I have already done, I am posting multiple articles giving various sides of the argument. That's how one exchanges and learns new ideas and concepts. So cheery picking to invalidate my position is deviously unfair. Debate honestly.

electric car are not green - Bing

If instead, you are stuck in your own belief system and facts mean nothing then why not save your breath and my time.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

OMG what a bunch of sillyness. I told you the right would hold on to this crazy shlt like a pitbull holds your leg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
This is your opinion and that's okay. But it doesn't correlate with the facts at hand. The power loss alone from remote source transmission makes current electric cars an inefficient use of any method of power generation.

What energy it takes to produce the components in manufacturing again exceeds standard vehicle production.

These are hard facts and at best make the EV auto no more green than an efficient gasoline vehicle of the same range, power and passenger capacity.

Here's more. Keep in mind before you quote excerpts, that as I have already done, I am posting multiple articles giving various sides of the argument. That's how one exchanges and learns new ideas and concepts. So cheery picking to invalidate my position is deviously unfair. Debate honestly.

electric car are not green - Bing

If instead, you are stuck in your own belief system and facts mean nothing then why not save your breath and my time.
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Old 12-29-2016, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
This is your opinion and that's okay. But it doesn't correlate with the facts at hand.
Uhhmmm no, its what the sources you provided say.


Quote:
The power loss alone from remote source transmission makes current electric cars an inefficient use of any method of power generation.
Again, its all about the Juice. According to your first source:

The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than those powered by gas, because of the pollution made in generating the electricity

But if the power supply comes from natural gas, the all-electric car produces half as many air pollution health problems as gas-powered cars do. And if the power comes from wind, water or wave energy, it produces about one-quarter of the air pollution deaths.

Hybrids and diesel engines are cleaner than gas, causing fewer air pollution deaths and spewing less heat-trapping gas.


Quote:
What energy it takes to produce the components in manufacturing again exceeds standard vehicle production.
Not according to your second source:

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...ot-green-think

"“We’re shifting pollution, and in the process we’re hoping that it doesn’t have the environmental impact,” says Abraham. He believes that when you add all the environmental impacts, they still come out in favor of electric vehicles. (The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life.) "


Quote:
These are hard facts and at best make the EV auto no more green than an efficient gasoline vehicle of the same range, power and passenger capacity.
Sounds more like your opinions than hard facts.

Quote:
Here's more. Keep in mind before you quote excerpts, that as I have already done, I am posting multiple articles giving various sides of the argument. That's how one exchanges and learns new ideas and concepts. So cheery picking to invalidate my position is deviously unfair. Debate honestly.
Im sorry if quoting the sources you just provided seems to disagree with the point you are making. Can you show me where I 'cheery picked' anything? Because I can assure you I did not. Perhaps you did not even read the own articles you used as sources? I wouldn't be surprised, as they seem to have clickbait titles that aren't exactly accurate to whats in the article.

electric car are not green - Bing

I understand there are quite a bit of clickbaity sounding headlines that you can search for. But From what I have read from the sources you have provided, there is a lot of gray area and while Electric Cars can be worse off than ICE vehicles, it really depends on where you live. I agree that purchasing a Leaf in Coal power country would be a terrible idea, but owning one in California is much much better for the environment. Again, this isn't an argument against Electric Vehicles, its an argument against dirty energy.

Quote:
If instead, you are stuck in your own belief system and facts mean nothing then why not save your breath and my time.
Now its my turn for a couple of sources (since you claim to be interested in facts, you'll notice these are links directly to PDF's of the studys not, opinion pieces with click-baity titles:

Multiple pieces analysis and research, from the Argonne National Laboratory, the UCLA, and Toyota themselves, agreed that hybrids (and electric cars, per the UCLA link) are overall better for the environment than normal cars, even if you account for the battery.
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Old 12-29-2016, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Electric Cars Aren't As Green As You Think

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedState View Post
Uhhmmm no, its what the sources you provided say.




Again, its all about the Juice. According to your first source:

The key is where the source of the electricity all-electric cars. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than those powered by gas, because of the pollution made in generating the electricity

But if the power supply comes from natural gas, the all-electric car produces half as many air pollution health problems as gas-powered cars do. And if the power comes from wind, water or wave energy, it produces about one-quarter of the air pollution deaths.

Hybrids and diesel engines are cleaner than gas, causing fewer air pollution deaths and spewing less heat-trapping gas.




Not according to your second source:

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas...ot-green-think

"“We’re shifting pollution, and in the process we’re hoping that it doesn’t have the environmental impact,” says Abraham. He believes that when you add all the environmental impacts, they still come out in favor of electric vehicles. (The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life.) "




Sounds more like your opinions than hard facts.



Im sorry if quoting the sources you just provided seems to disagree with the point you are making. Can you show me where I 'cheery picked' anything? Because I can assure you I did not. Perhaps you did not even read the own articles you used as sources? I wouldn't be surprised, as they seem to have clickbait titles that aren't exactly accurate to whats in the article.

electric car are not green - Bing

I understand there are quite a bit of clickbaity sounding headlines that you can search for. But From what I have read from the sources you have provided, there is a lot of gray area and while Electric Cars can be worse off than ICE vehicles, it really depends on where you live. I agree that purchasing a Leaf in Coal power country would be a terrible idea, but owning one in California is much much better for the environment. Again, this isn't an argument against Electric Vehicles, its an argument against dirty energy.



Now its my turn for a couple of sources (since you claim to be interested in facts, you'll notice these are links directly to PDF's of the studys not, opinion pieces with click-baity titles:

Multiple pieces analysis and research, from the Argonne National Laboratory, the UCLA, and Toyota themselves, agreed that hybrids (and electric cars, per the UCLA link) are overall better for the environment than normal cars, even if you account for the battery.
Electrics are not Hybrids. The original discussion was about EV cars. And I have no reason to prove them evil, obsolete, or even polluters. The point of the OP was that they are not as green as they are touted to be.

Hybrids are a bridge to total EV's which I believe is where we should be going. But I have no illusions about how "clean" they are and find no reason to hype any such "facts" that deceitfully promote them. The technology will evolve and stand on it's own. I believe it better overall that the process is left to market forces, not political ones.

You make good arguments against points I haven't made. Your usual tactic. But facts stand on their own and they are easier to understand and believe than people trying to prove them.
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