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Climate Change & The Environment Discuss Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by Infidel Dog Try both sides this time, I think you're going to be surprised to discover there's ...

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2011, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Originally Posted by Infidel Dog View Post
Try both sides this time, I think you're going to be surprised to discover there's always a supported argument to either side of the minutia of this argument.
What makes you think I don't try both sides? Because I'm skeptical of the skeptics?

I try to read on both, but I tend to gravitate to the opinions that I feel have the strongest scientific support and, despite a few anomolies, I believe in the scientific process and the peer review model as a good way to judge theories.

Quote:
I think there's a third side. That would be my side. I think all these rock solid claims of absolute fact from either side are bogus. When you watch the 2 sides argue it starts to look like we really don't know that much about climate yet. These climate arguments become more like literary arguments of your favorite book.
I think, perhaps like you, there are many sides. I see this argument though as much like the argument on evolution. The majority of scientific opinion agrees in the theory of evolution - of life evolving from simple to complex. The questions arise in the matter of "how".

I think it's foolish to assume humanity is incapable of influencing climate. The evidence exists in matters as wide spread as light pollution visable from outer space to earthquakes caused by filling of Hoover Dam. We can do it, we have done it and we will, if we survive, continue to do it.

When you say: "...it starts to look like we really don't know that much about climate yet..." I agree. It's a developing science and it's a science comprised of many disciplines. That is probably why many models get proposed and then rejected - we just don't know. However that is the PROCESS of scientific inquiry - not mark of failure. I tend to agree with the majority opinion here - that humanity has played and continues to play a role in climate change. I think the evidence is pretty clear. What is not so clear is to what degree and, whether we can alter the changes by altering our industries. There are huge economic and political ramifications to this science, world wide. Addressing it in any meaninful way requires an incredible amount of international dialogue that is fraught with internal political and economic problems. It is that which is driving much of the climate change skeptic posturing. There are no easy answers and, it's much more convenient to bury your head in the sand then begin the long and painful process of change.

Now, do I believe that catastrophe is imminent? No, I don't. But I think we are better off addressing it now then in an emergency where the penalties could higher and more painful.

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However, because we really don't know as much as we think we do, policy proposals become twitchy.
Surprise surprise...I do agree with you on this one

I don't at this point, know who's "policies" to follow....but I think it behooves all nations, partricularly those at low sea level, to take it seriously and prepare while preparation is still economically feasible. It will be more painful later on, if the theories prove true.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Originally Posted by Infidel Dog View Post
Billo - do you mean non-partisan like say this IPCC reviewer?

IPCC Green Doctor Prescribes End to Democracy to Solve Global Warming | hauntingthelibrary

Or do you mean non-partisan like say NASA/GISS head, James Hansen who's been arrested twice at activist protests, flown across the atlantic twice to give evidence in support of vandalism for the cause he considers politically correct, and received $100,000 from a foundation set up by John Kerry's wife, then later came out publicly for Kerry. Not to mention his Soros money under George's "politicization of science" program.

Or do you mean non-partisan like say the quote/unquote scientists at RealClimate.org - a site financed by the radical left.
Is that the same Hanson they lied about in an attempt to discredit?
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Is that the same Hanson they lied about in an attempt to discredit?
Actually it's the Hansen I just told you about above, and all of that can be verified.

I think I know what you may be talking about though. Hansen had been giving hundreds of interviews hyping his global warming is gonna kill the world schtick. Somebody in the Bush administration was dumb enough to appoint this young, punk, over-exuberant kid into the NASA bureaucracy. The new kid saw a rule saying NASA staff had to check in with the administration before doing interviews. Hansen never did that. The idiot kid thought he should, and canceled an interview.

Hansen, Soros, and the mainstream thuggery went ballistic. They went after the kid, got him fired, got the rules changed at NASA, got an apology from the worm running NASA at the time, and Hansen pretty much did anything he wanted after that.

Is that what you mean by lied about to discredit?

I'll help you find your side of the argument on those claims if you want. There's lots of leftist, mock (as in turtle soup) outrage to titillate yourself with if you want. Google 'Hansen muzzled'.

But if you want to know what actual muzzling looks like in the climate game google 'State climatologist fired'. The BBC/Jo Abess story is fun too. Hell there's tons more.

We're just scratching the surface here though. Do you want to really get into it? There's, lots more dirt on Hansen, but wouldn't you rather talk about Jimmy's magical temperature adjustments?

Last edited by Infidel Dog; 01-07-2011 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Actually it's the Hansen I just told you about above, and all of that can be verified.
Was he in a boy band with two brothers?
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Originally Posted by Infidel Dog View Post
Actually it's the Hansen I just told you about above, and all of that can be verified.

I think I know what you may be talking about though. Hansen had been giving hundreds of interviews hyping his global warming is gonna kill the world schtick. Somebody in the Bush administration was dumb enough to appoint this young, punk, over-exuberant kid into the NASA bureaucracy. The new kid saw a rule saying NASA staff had to check in with the administration before doing interviews. Hansen never did that. The idiot kid thought he should, and canceled an interview.

Hansen, Soros, and the mainstream thuggery went ballistic. They went after the kid, got him fired, got the rules changed at NASA, got an apology from the worm running NASA at the time, and Hansen pretty much did anything he wanted after that.

Is that what you mean by lied about to discredit?

I'll help you find your side of the argument on those claims if you want. There's lots of leftist, mock (as in turtle soup) outrage to titillate yourself with if you want. Google 'Hansen muzzled'.

But if you want to know what actual muzzling looks like in the climate game google 'State climatologist fired'. The BBC/Jo Abess story is fun too. Hell there's tons more.

We're just scratching the surface here though. Do you want to really get into it? There's, lots more dirt on Hansen, but wouldn't you rather talk about Jimmy's magical temperature adjustments?
No. I want to stick to verifiable facts - not political slop. From your statements above I seriously question that you considered both sides of the debate as you seem to view it from a political, not scientific perspective...

What I was talking about was this: ‘Hansen has been wrong before’—Maybe, but not about the climate! | How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: Responses to the most common skeptical arguments on global warming | Grist
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

Trust me, I'm fully aware of both sides of the argument. For example I've seen those "How to argue with a global warming skeptic" things many times. There was an even better one that came out last year. It was called Top 100 things global warming skeptics are wrong about, or something like that. Hell, I showed you where to find the opposing argument to what you're bitching about above.

But let's look at the one you found at the global warming alarmist site Grist for a sec. Here's the graph.



Notice the observed temperatures end in 1998? 1998 was the year of the super El Nino. It's the year global temperatures peaked. Now imagine the straight horizontal line of the plateau we talked about previously which occurred after 1998. Imagine it going straight into 2010. How's your scenario B doing now?

Also complaining about not mentioning Hansen's backup scenario's years later does not catch the full flavor of what actually happened 1988.

For example here's how they set up the background for Hansen's predictions of doom at the 1988 hearing. (Notice the big poop-eating grin on the Senator's face. He thinks creating a lie is soooooo smart).


OK, so what was Hansen actually trying to tell the world around that time?

Here's a link to an actual newspaper article from 1986.

The Past Is The Key To The Future | Real Science

Here's a quote from what's said there.

Quote:
Hansen predicted the temperatures should be nearly 2 degrees higher in 20 years "which is about the warmest the world has been in 100,000 years".
If you look again at your graph from your "How to argue with a global warming skeptic" article the temperature rise has only been about .2 of a degree since the time of the prophesy until today - 24 years later - not a full 2 degrees in just 20 years.

So you see Hansen may very well have had himself some back up prophecies, not quite so hysterical back in 88, but the hysterical ones were the ones he was peddling.

Don't believe me yet? Here's some more predictions from the prophet of doom back in 86 which never came to pass.

James Hansen 1986: Within 15 Years Temps Will be Hotter Than Past 100,000 Years. | hauntingthelibrary

Oh, and you say you don't want to talk about the NASA scientist's magical temperature adjustments. What the Hell, let's do it anyway.

Here's an introductory...

Painting by numbers: NASA's peculiar thermometer ? The Register

But let's be honest, you're not going to read it. You only want to hear one side. Oh well...look at the pretty picture.



I'll close by showing you what Jimmy's up to today.

Did someone say biased? James Hansen Spending His Time Helping Prepare Law Suits Against His Own Government | hauntingthelibrary

Last edited by Infidel Dog; 01-08-2011 at 05:09 PM..
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

BTW those how to argue with a global warming skeptic things are out of date. Find that top 100 thing. It's more current.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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BTW those how to argue with a global warming skeptic things are out of date. Find that top 100 thing. It's more current.

You complain about my sources, but I notice one consistent thing about yours - everyone of them is from a Climate Change Skeptic source. I pointed out that your "little ice age" was inaccurate - that there is no evidence supporting it was global for example.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

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Originally Posted by Infidel Dog View Post
Also complaining about not mentioning Hansen's backup scenario's years later does not catch the full flavor of what actually happened 1988.

For example here's how they set up the background for Hansen's predictions of doom at the 1988 hearing. (Notice the big poop-eating grin on the Senator's face. He thinks creating a lie is soooooo smart). OK, so what was Hansen actually trying to tell the world around that time?
That is less than one minute. How can you tell what he was trying to say?


Quote:
Here's a link to an actual newspaper article from 1986.

The Past Is The Key To The Future | Real Science

Here's a quote from what's said there.
And a source that is a clear skeptic source. Personally, I think that Hansen was wrong about the rate of change - that was almost 25 years ago and more has been learned since then.

Quote:
If you look again at your graph from your "How to argue with a global warming skeptic" article the temperature rise has only been about .2 of a degree since the time of the prophesy until today - 24 years later - not a full 2 degrees in just 20 years.
It looks like he was wrong about the rate but not about the trend which is going up in every forecast.

Quote:
So you see Hansen may very well have had himself some back up prophecies, not quite so hysterical back in 88, but the hysterical ones were the ones he was peddling.

Don't believe me yet? Here's some more predictions from the prophet of doom back in 86 which never came to pass.

James Hansen 1986: Within 15 Years Temps Will be Hotter Than Past 100,000 Years. | hauntingthelibrary

Oh, and you say you don't want to talk about the NASA scientist's magical temperature adjustments. What the Hell, let's do it anyway.

Here's an introductory...

Painting by numbers: NASA's peculiar thermometer ? The Register

But let's be honest, you're not going to read it. You only want to hear one side. Oh well...look at the pretty picture.

No. Lets be truely honest. You have only an interest in one side, as is evident by your choice of sources. I have stated what my own bias is. You, on the other hand pretend to consider both sides.

1986 is 25 years ago.


A lot of scientific research has gone on since then.


Skeptics seem hung up on the past not the present.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

I find the science of global climate change to be ineresting though difficult to understand due to the different specialties I have no knowledge of and, I strongly suspect ID, you do not either.

One interesting thing I notice in your poking fun at Hansen is he illustrates what is good about science: when the results don't fit the predictions, the theory is modified in accordance with new data. That is how science is supposed to work. That seems to be what Hansen is doing. It's impossible to know how many things affect climate and there may well be things we don't know about that are affecting temperatures. I think most scientists agree that the climate is changing due to a number of factors which include human activity. The "skeptics" seem to want to exclude human activity from consideration.

When I look at some of these sources - I have to ask: what are their qualifications? Who are they? Do they know the science or do they just sound good?

Not all sources are equal and I am more likely to take the word of someone with credentials in the associated sciences than I am from some internet sourcde I've never heard of.
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