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Old 07-11-2018, 12:17 PM
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Default If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood


Former Planned Parenthood employees and hidden cameras show that PP routinely do not report and/or covers up known sexual abuse, rape, sexual exploitation and human trafficking.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:35 PM
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Post Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

This approach is like saying that if you condemn child molestation you can't support the Catholic Church. At least that would have more statistical / historical validity...

But the true path forward is to understand that where PP does have occasional problems, they need to be fixed.


And on prostitution and other similar items, I would be fascinated to know how many priests / clergy received confessions that they stayed quiet on rather than go to the police...
But hey! It's PP that should be thrown under the bus for not violating doctor / patient confidentiality...
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
This approach is like saying that if you condemn child molestation you can't support the Catholic Church. At least that would have more statistical / historical validity...
But the true path forward is to understand that where PP does have occasional problems, they need to be fixed.
And on prostitution and other similar items, I would be fascinated to know how many priests / clergy received confessions that they stayed quiet on rather than go to the police...
But hey! It's PP that should be thrown under the bus for not violating doctor / patient confidentiality...
foundit66... you may have a point.
maybe blind support of both orgs should be reexamined based on their actions.

However there is one large difference though.
the stated goals of the RCC is to Love God, spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and treat all human beings with love and respect.
their NOTHING in the acts of corrupt criminal sexual predatory clergy that aligns with the mission or teachings of Jesus Christ.

But planned parenthood's mission and primary tool set include providing abortions and "helping" women quietly get them while BTW covering/ignoring/protecting, sexual users, abusers, pedos, rapist, and human traffickers.
the opposite of what #meToo and #timesup are about

the RCC church has lawsuits and legal action against it for many of it's cover-ups and crimes.
(and are supposedly working to fix it's issues)

But planned parenthood has somehow escaped this. And it's supporters ...like many RCC supporters for decades... are in denial of the crimes and cover-ups and want to attack the messengers. Rather than address the abuses and harm done by the planned parenthood organization.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

I don't like Planned Parenthood because of personal dealings I have had with them. And I can't keep up. What's Times up again?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
And I can't keep up. What's Times up again?
Russian bots.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:45 PM
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Post Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
foundit66... you may have a point.
But you still don't grasp it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
maybe blind support of both orgs should be reexamined based on their actions.
However there is one large difference though.
the stated goals of the RCC is to Love God, spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and treat all human beings with love and respect.
their NOTHING in the acts of corrupt criminal sexual predatory clergy that aligns with the mission or teachings of Jesus Christ.
This is not only entirely irrelevant, it is applicable to PP as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
But planned parenthood's mission and primary tool set include providing abortions and "helping" women quietly get them while BTW covering/ignoring/protecting, sexual users, abusers, pedos, rapist, and human traffickers.
the opposite of what #meToo and #timesup are about
No. There is nothing in the PP mission that is as you describe.
As I have stated, doctor / patient confidentiality is one huge part of it.
The second revolves around whether or not the patient involved actually wants to report a problem. If the patient involved does not want to report a problem, then doctor / patient confidentiality prevents PP from reporting the problem.

The difference between PP and the Catholic church is that the Catholic church learned of the problem outside of the confessional. And then they paid money to keep the victims quiet. This was not a decision made at isolated lower level locations but at upper levels and systematically put into place, unlike PP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the RCC church has lawsuits and legal action against it for many of it's cover-ups and crimes.
(and are supposedly working to fix it's issues)
But planned parenthood has somehow escaped this. And it's supporters ...like many RCC supporters for decades... are in denial of the crimes and cover-ups and want to attack the messengers. Rather than address the abuses and harm done by the planned parenthood organization.
Again, doctor / patient confidentiality.
And secondly, PP has thousands of workers employed and you think a three minute video which shows a couple of examples proves something about the entire organization...
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post

This is not only entirely irrelevant, it is applicable to PP as well.
PP main mission is to tell people about Jesus Christ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. There is nothing in the PP mission that is as you describe.
the main thing many PP locations DO is abortions. It IS the mission.
you don't need a medical office to hand out condoms Birth control pills and propaganda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
As I have stated, doctor / patient confidentiality is one huge part of it.
The second revolves around whether or not the patient involved actually wants to report a problem. If the patient involved does not want to report a problem, then doctor / patient confidentiality prevents PP from reporting the problem....
Again, doctor / patient confidentiality.
And secondly, PP has thousands of workers employed and you think a three minute video which shows a couple of examples proves something about the entire organization...
there is no "doctor / patient confidentiality" or more to the point, social worker, or PP "councilor"- client/patient confidentiality that override their legal and moral duty to report victims of crimes or criminals. (the abortion docs at PP clinics rarely say "hi" to women in the disassembly line tables)
I'm disappointed that you'd even try to use that excuse.
the instances of PP inaction show they are told outright about crimes and the perps and do not report it. and sometimes have seen the SAME victims and perps on repeated occasions their to cover up the crime by killing the babies.
In moral... if not legal... sense making them accessories to the crimes.
"Most states have an exception to the therapist-patient privilege for dangerous patients, often referred to as the Tarasoff duty. (Tarasoff v. Regents of Univ. of Cal., 17 Cal.3d 425 (1976).) Depending on the jurisdiction, the exception either allows or requires therapists to report statements by patients that indicate dangerousness. The law might, for instance, say that therapists must disclose statements when the patient presents a risk of serious harm to others and disclosure is necessary to prevent that harm.

The therapist’s required course of action can depend on the circumstances, and can involve notifying the potential victim, the police, or both. (United States v. Chase, 340 F.3d 978 (9th Cir. 2003).) For instance, if a patient tells her psychiatrist that she plans on shooting her ex-boyfriend, the psychiatrist may have to notify the police and warn the former beau. If the patient is sufficiently mentally ill, the therapist may be required to initiate involuntary commitment proceedings.

In some instances, once the duty to warn has arisen and the therapist has divulged the patient’s statements, those statements may be used at trial. State law can, however, allow the therapist to warn but prevent him or her from testifying at any eventual trial. Indeed, several courts have held that the duty to warn is distinct from the admissibility of the patient’s statements in court—that a therapist must still warn of a dangerous patient but may not testify about the statements causing the warning. (United States v. Ghane, 673 F.3d 771, 786 (8th Cir. 2012).)...

Child Abuse Exception

Many states have statutes requiring healthcare providers, including mental health professionals, to report any suspected abuse of children, elders, and dependent adults. So, in most cases, therapists who hear admissions of such abuse from patients not only can report their patients’ statements—they must.

If, for example, a man confesses to his therapist that he recently beat his stepdaughter, the psychotherapist-patient privilege as to that confession may well fold. The therapist may have to report the admission to the authorities, and the patient’s incriminating statements may be admissible in court. (Hayes v. State, 667 N.E.2d 222 (Ind. Ct. App. 1996).)
All that plus the perps aren't even the patient!
The patients are the victims of sexual abuse, rape, trafficking etc..

It's simply immoral and illegal for PP reps at ANY level to see admitted victims come,TAKE their MONEY... or the perps money... and not report it.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

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Russian bots.
prolly. and I just don't have the inclination to find out.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:37 PM
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Post Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
PP main mission is to tell people about Jesus Christ?
I should have clarified. My mistake.
PP has a mission statement which does not include covering up crime.

We can create secondary justifications for both groups. Obviously if the Catholic Church wants to bring people to its belief system, this will be harmed if people view the priesthood as containing pedophiles. So covering it up (aiding and abetting a crime) can be claimed as in their interest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the main thing many PP locations DO is abortions. It IS the mission.
you don't need a medical office to hand out condoms Birth control pills and propaganda.
Offer abortion services? Yes.
Cover up crime is the question at hand, and that is a "No".


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
there is no "doctor / patient confidentiality" or more to the point, social worker, or PP "councilor"- client/patient confidentiality that override their legal and moral duty to report victims of crimes or criminals. (the abortion docs at PP clinics rarely say "hi" to women in the disassembly line tables)
That's exactly part of doctor / patient confidentiality.
Physician–patient privilege is a legal concept, related to medical confidentiality, that protects communications between a patient and his or her doctor from being used against the patient in court. It is a part of the rules of evidence in many common law jurisdictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physic...ient_privilege

And you don't seem to appreciate that the church confessional has similar protection as well. Or do you think that priests are allowed to go to the police and report any criminal confession they get?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
the instances of PP inaction show they are told outright about crimes and the perps and do not report it. and sometimes have seen the SAME victims and perps on repeated occasions their to cover up the crime by killing the babies.
In moral... if not legal... sense making them accessories to the crimes.
"Most states have an exception to the therapist-patient privilege for dangerous patients, often referred to as the Tarasoff duty. (Tarasoff v. Regents of Univ. of Cal., 17 Cal.3d 425 (1976).) Depending on the jurisdiction, the exception either allows or requires therapists to report statements by patients that indicate dangerousness. The law might, for instance, say that therapists must disclose statements when the patient presents a risk of serious harm to others and disclosure is necessary to prevent that harm.
The therapist’s required course of action can depend on the circumstances, and can involve notifying the potential victim, the police, or both. (United States v. Chase, 340 F.3d 978 (9th Cir. 2003).) For instance, if a patient tells her psychiatrist that she plans on shooting her ex-boyfriend, the psychiatrist may have to notify the police and warn the former beau. If the patient is sufficiently mentally ill, the therapist may be required to initiate involuntary commitment proceedings.
In some instances, once the duty to warn has arisen and the therapist has divulged the patient’s statements, those statements may be used at trial. State law can, however, allow the therapist to warn but prevent him or her from testifying at any eventual trial. Indeed, several courts have held that the duty to warn is distinct from the admissibility of the patient’s statements in court—that a therapist must still warn of a dangerous patient but may not testify about the statements causing the warning. (United States v. Ghane, 673 F.3d 771, 786 (8th Cir. 2012).)...

Child Abuse Exception
Many states have statutes requiring healthcare providers, including mental health professionals, to report any suspected abuse of children, elders, and dependent adults. So, in most cases, therapists who hear admissions of such abuse from patients not only can report their patients’ statements—they must.

If, for example, a man confesses to his therapist that he recently beat his stepdaughter, the psychotherapist-patient privilege as to that confession may well fold. The therapist may have to report the admission to the authorities, and the patient’s incriminating statements may be admissible in court. (Hayes v. State, 667 N.E.2d 222 (Ind. Ct. App. 1996).)
All that plus the perps aren't even the patient!
The patients are the victims of sexual abuse, rape, trafficking etc..

It's simply immoral and illegal for PP reps at ANY level to see admitted victims come,TAKE their MONEY... or the perps money... and not report it.
You are mixing a variety of issues here and mixing in a lot of generalization.
First off, if a sex worker comes in and wants an abortion, they are covered under Doctor / Patient confidentiality. PP cannot testify.
If an abuse victim comes in and does not want to press charges, there is nothing real that PP can do. Their statements would be hearsay and if the victim contradicts the statements, it's a futile endeavor.

For the "pimp" scenario, you need to be honest and acknowledge what PP's real position is.
“The behavior we saw in the videotape was egregious and repugnant,” said Planned Parenthood spokesman Stuart Schear, adding that it was “completely inexplicable and inconsistent with what Planned Parenthood does.”
What Did the Planned Parenthood Sting Really Accomplish? | TIME.com

Also, it's relevant to point out Planned Parenthood's actual position.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ult-abuse-rape
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: If you support Times Up and Me Too, you can't support Planned Parenthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I should have clarified. My mistake.
PP has a mission statement which does not include covering up crime.
We can create secondary justifications for both groups. Obviously if the Catholic Church wants to bring people to its belief system, this will be harmed if people view the priesthood as containing pedophiles. So covering it up (aiding and abetting a crime) can be claimed as in their interest.
but not a natural outgrowth of their mission and mission statement, the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Offer abortion services? Yes.
Cover up crime is the question at hand, and that is a "No".
from their site
"The mission of Planned Parenthood is:
to provide comprehensive reproductive and complementary health care services in settings which preserve and protect the essential privacy and rights of each individual;
•to advocate public policies which guarantee these rights and ensure access to such services;
•to provide educational programs which enhance understanding of individual and societal implications of human sexuality;
•to promote research and the advancement of technology in reproductive health care and encourage understanding of their inherent bioethical, behavioral, and social implications.
in their mission "privacy" seems to implicitly include covering up for crimes against women. privacy as a TOP mission priority (along with "reproductive services" = abortions ) flow easily from it's mission with the right interpration of the of the mission and "the law" ....as you define it.
Rather than being at odds with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
That's exactly part of doctor / patient confidentiality.
Physician–patient privilege is a legal concept, related to medical confidentiality, that protects communications between a patient and his or her doctor from being used against the patient in court. It is a part of the rules of evidence in many common law jurisdictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physic...ient_privilege
please review exceptions noted in previous post. and the fact that the perps are not patients.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
And you don't seem to appreciate that the church confessional has similar protection as well. Or do you think that priests are allowed to go to the police and report any criminal confession they get?
As i've stated before the RCC has issue here as well. Issues that don't make them a Cover for the actions of PP.
the RCC church needs to answers for what it's allowed and covered for as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You are mixing a variety of issues here and mixing in a lot of generalization.
First off, if a sex worker comes in and wants an abortion, they are covered under Doctor / Patient confidentiality. PP cannot testify.
again PP counselors aren't doctors, and by default teenage "sex workers" are victims of crime. To call them "sex workers" is BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
If an abuse victim comes in and does not want to press charges, there is nothing real that PP can do. Their statements would be hearsay and if the victim contradicts the statements, it's a futile endeavor.
Let the cops and the courts decide that. there are MORE than few cases where social workers have removed children or caregivers from homes based on "heresay" or less. but if a kid has had and abortion and/or there's other evidence of sexual abuse that's IS evidence.

let the system work it out rather than sending apparent victims on their way.
If PP really cared about women they would TRY and help. and not just by killing babies, or handing out birth control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
For the "pimp" scenario, you need to be honest and acknowledge what PP's real position is.
“The behavior we saw in the videotape was egregious and repugnant,” said Planned Parenthood spokesman Stuart Schear, adding that it was “completely inexplicable and inconsistent with what Planned Parenthood does.”
What Did the Planned Parenthood Sting Really Accomplish? | TIME.com
Also, it's relevant to point out Planned Parenthood's actual position.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ult-abuse-rape
the RCChurch ALSO said ...for decades... that they were applaud by the isolated incident(s) and that their REAL policy was....

PP's "real position" sounds fine, but some former PP employees state flatly that it's public policy and the day to day practice do not align.
So for any honest person, it seems to me that the spotlight and ongoing serious investigation should be on the table to assure that they are in fact adhering to the STATED policies.

If you'd like "trust but verify".

But personally I've heard and read so much from former PP employees and victims over the decades that I distrust their public statements. just as those in the 80s in Boston who had heard from victims and former church insiders knew the Boston RCC's real practices differed drastically from the stated policies.
Also it should be noted that NOT ALL the Priest were or are pedophiles, most weren't. But it doesn't mean that the RCChurch should be assumed blameless.
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