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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?' at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by foundit66 Sometimes right-wing arguments reveal more about them than they do that which they attempt to criticize. ...

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Old 01-22-2017, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Sometimes right-wing arguments reveal more about them than they do that which they attempt to criticize.
It's such an absurd argument. A presumptive belief that men are "disciplined" by women saying no. Possibly because they fear getting pregnant.
It also presents a pretense that women who enjoy sex are not "self-respecting".

It speaks more to a pseudo-religious pretense of attempting to maintain control through flimsy proclamations of fear.
I think you're reading into "disciplined/undisciplined" the wrong meaning.
It can mean something besides someone telling them 'no'; being undisciplined means someone with a lack of self-control. The context of the word in this paragraph makes it pretty clear that's what she meant by that and nowhere did she say women MADE them disciplined or undisciplined.
The rest of what you said is a complete stretch IMO; I don't see how you could have read any of that into it.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:14 PM
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Post Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I think you're reading into "disciplined/undisciplined" the wrong meaning.
It can mean something besides someone telling them 'no'; being undisciplined means someone with a lack of self-control. The context of the word in this paragraph makes it pretty clear that's what she meant by that and nowhere did she say women MADE them disciplined or undisciplined.
So "undisciplined" means "lack of self-control"?
I recommend you look at the whole statement...
As pro-life feminists have long argued, the undisciplined testosterone-driven male libido, interested in no-strings-attached sex, benefits most from an abortion-permissive culture. And when male sexuality goes undisciplined, bereft of the deep emotional bonds once demanded by self-respecting women, sex is sought for pleasure alone.
So WHO exactly is exerting this "self-control" if the male sexuality "goes undisciplined"?
Hint: That would be the woman who would be saying no...

To use your words, if a married couple wants to have sex for pleasure, does that mean they "lack ... self-control"?
(your words)

And why would "sex is sought for pleasure alone" be something contingent on "lack of self control"?

Face it. The article was talking about some outdated, puritanical ideals regarding sex.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
The rest of what you said is a complete stretch IMO; I don't see how you could have read any of that into it.
If you want to offer an alternative explanation, feel free.

On the other hand, if you suddenly want to admit it makes no sense (which would overlap with winston saying it was b.s.), that would be something you could consider instead of jumping to try to contradict others...
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
So "undisciplined" means "lack of self-control"?
If I say "I can't lose weight because I'm undisciplined" it means I have a lack of self-control. So yes, the word "undisciplined" means "lack of self-control."

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I recommend you look at the whole statement...
As pro-life feminists have long argued, the undisciplined testosterone-driven male libido, interested in no-strings-attached sex, benefits most from an abortion-permissive culture. And when male sexuality goes undisciplined, bereft of the deep emotional bonds once demanded by self-respecting women, sex is sought for pleasure alone.
So WHO exactly is exerting this "self-control" if the male sexuality "goes undisciplined"?
Hint: That would be the woman who would be saying no...
You're reading WAAAAAY too much into that; she is simply pointing out that guys tend to be more promiscuous than women (a known fact) and so it is only going to help women to demand their men love them and not use them for sex. That in and of itself shows that pro-life feminists should be welcome in feminism because their goal is to help women ...

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
To use your words, if a married couple wants to have sex for pleasure, does that mean they "lack ... self-control"?
(your words)
A married couple having sex, by self-evident definition, is already exercising discipline because they are with the person they are married to.
The author did NOT say people can't have sex for pleasure.
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

um yeah, What Joe Said.

Seems some people can only read THEIR negative views into others words.

"...the undisciplined testosterone-driven male libido, interested in no-strings-attached sex, benefits most from an abortion-permissive culture. And when male sexuality goes undisciplined, bereft of the deep emotional bonds once demanded by self-respecting women, sex is sought for pleasure alone."

so what's wrong with that? nothing that i can see.

Women demanding emotional bonds before a sex. OK seems reasonable.
Especially if abortion is not available because the consequences for her are the very real possibility of raising children alone or with a husband/father that doesn't care for her or the children.
Seems very reasonable.
FAR from BS, about as far from BS as you can get.

women in a self respecting way demanding emotional bonds before any sexual intercourse
OK that is, before physical pleasure and/or before the attempt to make children.

um, there's ZERO wrong with the logic of the statement.

the OP doesn't say that ALL men ARE undisciplined. As the OP begins with the idea that legal abortion make men like Trump WORSE. It gives them an "easy" fix and an extra excuse to indulge their pleasures with no concern for women or larger consequences.

I'm not seeing the BS here at all.

so FI66 doesn't like the idea that Women might force some men to be more disciplined about sex if abortion is unavailable.
But as a practical matter It probably would happen in some cases.
and Winston just doesn't like the sound of it, and the fact the Joe posted it, so it's BS. Ok.
You're not saying that Men are by nature very disciplined sexually you're not saying that all women are promiscuous and/or stupid.
I don't think any man that been with a women more than month can say that they can't exert some influence, if not discipline, on a man's actions.

So sorry, I'm really trying to understand what the beef is here but i don't see it.
seems to me you'd be better off saying something like,
While the OP may have some validity I still think abortion should be legal.
Because your reactions so far aren't making sense IMO.
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Old 01-23-2017, 01:52 AM
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Post Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
so FI66 doesn't like the idea that Women might force some men to be more disciplined about sex if abortion is unavailable.
Not what I said at all.
It's a woman's choice to choose when to have sex. And her decision on the reasons.
But her decision shouldn't be hindered by other people limiting her options based on their religious views...

But you keep on lying about what other people are saying if you think that helps you out some, 'mmkay.
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Old 01-23-2017, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
um yeah, What Joe Said.

Seems some people can only read THEIR negative views into others words.

"...the undisciplined testosterone-driven male libido, interested in no-strings-attached sex, benefits most from an abortion-permissive culture. And when male sexuality goes undisciplined, bereft of the deep emotional bonds once demanded by self-respecting women, sex is sought for pleasure alone."

so what's wrong with that? nothing that i can see.

Women demanding emotional bonds before a sex. OK seems reasonable.
Especially if abortion is not available because the consequences for her are the very real possibility of raising children alone or with a husband/father that doesn't care for her or the children.
Seems very reasonable.
FAR from BS, about as far from BS as you can get.

women in a self respecting way demanding emotional bonds before any sexual intercourse
OK that is, before physical pleasure and/or before the attempt to make children.

um, there's ZERO wrong with the logic of the statement.

the OP doesn't say that ALL men ARE undisciplined. As the OP begins with the idea that legal abortion make men like Trump WORSE. It gives them an "easy" fix and an extra excuse to indulge their pleasures with no concern for women or larger consequences.

I'm not seeing the BS here at all.

so FI66 doesn't like the idea that Women might force some men to be more disciplined about sex if abortion is unavailable.
But as a practical matter It probably would happen in some cases.
and Winston just doesn't like the sound of it, and the fact the Joe posted it, so it's BS. Ok.
You're not saying that Men are by nature very disciplined sexually you're not saying that all women are promiscuous and/or stupid.
I don't think any man that been with a women more than month can say that they can't exert some influence, if not discipline, on a man's actions.

So sorry, I'm really trying to understand what the beef is here but i don't see it.
seems to me you'd be better off saying something like,
While the OP may have some validity I still think abortion should be legal.
Because your reactions so far aren't making sense IMO.

First off I would like to say thank you for mentioning me. And that is really cool. Because I do pay attention to you too. Unfortunately we disagree on a lot of things. But we agree to do that. I hope.
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Damn shame it couldn't have been a father / son event. IMHO.
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Old 01-23-2017, 08:02 AM
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Default Re: 'I'm a feminist against abortion. Why exclude me from a march for women?'

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Not what I said at all.
It's a woman's choice to choose when to have sex. And her decision on the reasons.
But her decision shouldn't be hindered by other people limiting her options based on their religious views...

But you keep on lying about what other people are saying if you think that helps you out some, 'mmkay.
Congratulations, you just validated the central thesis of the OP. If as you say, it is a woman's choice to have sex or not, men are just helpless victims of testosterone poisoning, then ubiquitous abortions provide a means for women to escape responsibllity as well. Refusing to have sex is just a personal affront, she can always have an abortion if she doesn't want the child, it is her "choice".

After all it is just "hooking up" as depersonalized as ordering a pizza, both satisfy biological urges. No need to be penalized with a baby as our former President held. Don't want to become the object of ridicule like Ann Romney, never worked a day in her life according to Hillary Rosen. Of course the unborn child doesn't get a say in the matter.
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