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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right? at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Joe Shoe I guess if someone gives a response about cats in a thread about dogs, they ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:41 AM
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Post Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I guess if someone gives a response about cats in a thread about dogs, they could claim they are "responding" ...
Your replies are so disingenuous it is kind of amazing.

You present an article which claims minorities are "increasing" their vote for an alt-right group because of concerns on ISIS.
So I ask you about what this alt-right group is going to accomplish regarding ISIS, and you think that is off topic?


I can requote the context of your reply and what I said if you still refuse to admit that my question was entirely on topic.
If you're referring to something else, then quote it to help demonstrate what you're whining about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
We can discuss it, but it's certainly a different direction for the thead and no refutation or rebuttal to anything said so far.
You started this thread, talking about "increasing" minority votes for an alt-right group because of concerns about ISIS.
And you think that talking about how the alt-right group would actually do better against ISIS is off topic...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
So you want to discuss "what National Front could do to ISIS"?
Yes. In a realistic, comparative discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedState View Post
I've been paying a lot of attention to the German Election since November, and noticed that the alt-right and Russia is now targeting Merkel with their fake news, now that Hillary is gone. The Good News is however, Germany doesn't have 30+ years of GOP anti-intellectualism to deal with like the US does.

And there is no way the AfD can win the Federal Election in September. This is how people would vote if the election were next Sunday:

CDU-CSU (Center-Right/Right): 37%
SPD (Center-Left): 21%
Greens (Enviromentalist): 10%
FDP (Liberalist): 6%
The Left (guess): 10%
AfD (Far Right-Populist): 12%
Others: 6%

No other party will seek a coalition with the AfD, so they somehow have to gain ~35%+ of the total vote. Everything looks like another 4 years of boring GroKo. Merkel is one tough babe, she can hold the wolves off for four years until we can kick the alt-right out of office over here.
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Originally Posted by RedState View Post
Yeah, gays and Jews should totally vote far-right! Those guys love them!
Here's some quotes from the Far Right AfD party in Germany:
AfD member of the parliament: "We should throw gays into prison too like they do in muslim countries!"
AfD-Mann will Homosexuelle ins Gefngnis stecken - Politik - Sddeutsche.de
Afd member of the parliament: "Europe has always faced two enemys. Islam from the outside and talmudic ghetto rabbis from the inside. (He's too shy to say jews)
Antisemitische Thesen von AfD-Abgeordneten Gedeon
AfD party leader: "No German likes to live next to someone like him!" (Regarding Jerome Boateng, black soccer player)
AfD-Vize Gauland beleidigt Jerome Boateng
AfD member of the parliament: "We should throw gays into prison too like they do in muslim countries!"
When pressed on this comment, here was the very reasonable explanation from the AfD:

"No, no, you see, I have no beef with the homos. I just hate all of you, degenerate public-affection-dispalying scum."

Well why didn't you just say so! Crisis. Fuc*ing. Averted.
Right now most AfD voters are single issue voters and seem to want to drag the other parties closer to their position on immigration. Even a large part of their voters do not think the AfD is the most qualified party to govern. They feel comfortable voicing their opinion on immigration by voting for them because they are basically guaranteed to "only" end up in the opposition anyway.
And the article is filled with weasel words to avoid this.
"increasingly voted".
If 13% of gays voted for them and that increased to 16%, that measly 3% "increase" can be touted as something significant when it's really not.

And those are the exact numbers lifted from the article.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

Last year I read this article about Matthew Chartraire, a popular French Gay model, who supports the FN. He explains his reasons.


"I believe that Europe has become very stupid": Meet the gay French model who supports LePen's National Front - The Rebel

"Homosexuals are supporting the NF for the same reasons as many other French people. They are exasperated by the establishment and believe Marine Le Pen offers them change."
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Old 01-17-2017, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

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Last year I read this article about Matthew Chartraire, a popular French Gay model, who supports the FN. He explains his reasons.


"I believe that Europe has become very stupid": Meet the gay French model who supports LePen's National Front - The Rebel

"Homosexuals are supporting the NF for the same reasons as many other French people. They are exasperated by the establishment and believe Marine Le Pen offers them change."
I can understand an exasperation with the status quo, but holy sh*t... That's not a justification for embracing right wing politics.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You present an article which claims minorities are "increasing" their vote for an alt-right group because of concerns on ISIS.
So I ask you about what this alt-right group is going to accomplish regarding ISIS, and you think that is off topic?
I think the key doesn't lie in the idea they might do "more", but that they admit Muslim immigration is out of control, and that they seem to be more able to admit that ISIS is a real problem in Europe. IOW, they are willing to admit and state the obvious, more than left-wing groups who can't bring themselves to see that the flood of Muslim immigrants is causing issues. Where are all the left wing groups calling for more controls on Muslim immigration and more attention to combatting ISIS? Oh wait ... you don't HAVE any calls from the far left on that stuff, huh?

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If 13% of gays voted for them and that increased to 16%, that measly 3% "increase" can be touted as something significant when it's really not.

And those are the exact numbers lifted from the article.
Wow.
I am rather surprised you don't think it would be noteworthy for there to be a 3% increase of gays supporting the modern day equivalent of Nazis. These European rightwing groups (and their leftwing ones as well) are considerably more radical than the right and left in the U.S. It's a different world there.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
I can understand an exasperation with the status quo, but holy sh*t... That's not a justification for embracing right wing politics.
I wouldn't call it an embrace as much as a pragmatic perspective. There are aspects of FN that he doesn't support, but this one individual explains that the standard of living is falling, unemployment is rising, and police can't control crime. Gay or not, he is just like other citizens of France, who want security. He says in the interview that the FN is a pretty diverse group.
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Old 01-18-2017, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

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Originally Posted by zoriolus View Post
I wouldn't call it an embrace as much as a pragmatic perspective. There are aspects of FN that he doesn't support, but this one individual explains that the standard of living is falling, unemployment is rising, and police can't control crime. Gay or not, he is just like other citizens of France, who want security. He says in the interview that the FN is a pretty diverse group.
Again, it is not a justification of right wing politics. Humans will always move away from right wing politics because of the arc of freedom and equality, and history teaches us that right wing politics is the antithesis of freedom and equality.
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:53 AM
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Post Re: Why are Jews, gays, and other minorities in Europe increasingly voting far-right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
I think the key doesn't lie in the idea they might do "more", but that they admit Muslim immigration is out of control, and that they seem to be more able to admit that ISIS is a real problem in Europe.
Are you serious with this stupid b.s.?
Name me a left-wing political group (either U.S. or France) who doesn't admit ISIS is a problem.

You guys SERIOUSLY need to stop swilling the kool-aid.
Where the disagreement lies is in how to deal with the problem.
Do we stereotype millions of Muslims based on the actions of a handful?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
IOW, they are willing to admit and state the obvious, more than left-wing groups who can't bring themselves to see that the flood of Muslim immigrants is causing issues.
Can you elaborate on WHAT ISSUES you are referring to with this?
Please. Be specific.

There are amusing parallels that are often missed by both sides.
A school shooting occurs. Some people want to ban guns.
Overkill. An unrealistic response. The vast majority of guns are not used to kill people.
An ISIS attack occurs. Some people want to ban Muslims.
Overkill. An unrealistic response. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Where are all the left wing groups calling for more controls on Muslim immigration and more attention to combatting ISIS? Oh wait ... you don't HAVE any calls from the far left on that stuff, huh?
Again, getting back to the whole "So I guess all the military operations against ISIS during Obama years are just figments of the imagination?" comment I had earlier which you ignored...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Wow.
I am rather surprised you don't think it would be noteworthy for there to be a 3% increase of gays supporting the modern day equivalent of Nazis.
It's times like this during which I urge you to take a mental note for yourself that you really do not have a good predictive model on my opinion, and as such you should never try to tell me my opinion is something other than what I say it is.
(Not saying you did that in this thread. But for your future notes...)

Quite frankly, if we want to go that route (like your argument above), it's not really the 3% "increase" but the overall percentage which would be more troubling.
For example, say 32% of Catholics support the National Front. Catholics make up over 85% of France's population.
For every one gay person, 34 times more Catholics support them.
That support is more problematic than 13% to 16%...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
These European rightwing groups (and their leftwing ones as well) are considerably more radical than the right and left in the U.S. It's a different world there.
Understood.
Doesn't change my opinion that a 3% increase of gays (voting for this candidate) is not that significant.
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