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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Joe Shoe One example would be the way encrypted texting services over smart phones work--Using imessage or ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2017, 11:50 AM
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Post Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
One example would be the way encrypted texting services over smart phones work--Using imessage or an Android equivilent rather that SMS, since imessage is just IP data (that can be done over any wi-fi network anywhere--NOT a cell tower) as well as encrypted. This is way more secure than simple SMS traffic which companies like AT&T can actually monitor from their towers.
Quite frankly, this approach is like blaming the rape victim and telling her to put on more clothes.
Plus it doesn't cover the depth and breadth of the problem. The data the cell company has would include at least a crude location (depending upon which cell towers were hit with which strength), who you called, who you texted, etc, etc.
Your solution is to essentially use your phone, but don't use the phone service. (don't use phone messaging with cell coverage, but use a replacement app on wifi)

It's time the problem was attacked at its root instead of just trying to tell the rape victim she shouldn't have worn that.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Yes, Foundit, I read the article. I was just giving examples where many people who advocate for strong privacy don't walk the walk, personally.

So in the problem of rape, if some women wear skimpy problems, does that mean anything regarding the problem of rape?
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Old 02-27-2017, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Quite frankly, this approach is like blaming the rape victim and telling her to put on more clothes.
Plus it doesn't cover the depth and breadth of the problem. The data the cell company has would include at least a crude location (depending upon which cell towers were hit with which strength), who you called, who you texted, etc, etc.

It's time the problem was attacked at its root instead of just trying to tell the rape victim she shouldn't have worn that.
There's a difference between telling someone AFTER the fact they should have not done so-and-so--like wear skimpy outfits--from simply pro-actively making smart descisions and learning to do things in a safer way (which is what I'm talking about). A better way to look at it in terms of your analogy of 'rape' is that it IS certainly appropriate for someone to avoid walking alone at night in a high-crime area, for instance, and therefore take precautions. THAT IS taking security precautions, in the analogy you gave. No one is saying it should be ALL up to the individual to engage in secure practices when it comes to technology. But it certainly does help to try to do things in a more secure way.

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Your solution is to essentially use your phone, but don't use the phone service. (don't use phone messaging with cell coverage, but use a replacement app on wifi)
That is correct--this is one strategy I'm suggesting, as SMS is sort of a dated insecure protocol. I'm sure there are other things one can do to help as well.
Wi-fi calling is getting to be more and more common now as well, which is another tool.
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Old 02-27-2017, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Photography of inanimate objects (buildings and such) or nature, there is no problem.

The minute you take a picture for profit or intent for profit, any person or privately owned property that's in that photograph, you need a release.

Sort of like a warrant, if you will. Generalized data (x number of hotdogs were purchased at X zip code) is used for marketing, and people have to understand that when they sign up for something.

When it is individual target specific, or content specific (word scanning), THEN a warrant is necessary, IMO.
Well kinda. When a person is out in public there is a diminished expectation of privacy. Here is a case:

Upskirt Photos Should Be Illegal Everywhere | Time.com

Now here is a photographer that practiced street photography:

https://www.google.com/search?q=robe...EdDPMQ_AUIBigB

These are all perfectly legal.
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:01 PM
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Post Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
There's a difference between telling someone AFTER the fact they should have not done so-and-so--like wear skimpy outfits--from simply pro-actively making smart descisions and learning to do things in a safer way (which is what I'm talking about). A better way to look at it in terms of your analogy of 'rape' is that it IS certainly appropriate for someone to avoid walking alone at night in a high-crime area, for instance, and therefore take precautions. THAT IS taking security precautions, in the analogy you gave. No one is saying it should be ALL up to the individual to engage in secure practices when it comes to technology. But it certainly does help to try to do things in a more secure way.

That is correct--this is one strategy I'm suggesting, as SMS is sort of a dated insecure protocol. I'm sure there are other things one can do to help as well.
Wi-fi calling is getting to be more and more common now as well, which is another tool.
I find the above amusing in the context of your earlier statement, which should realistically be applied to you instead...
Joe Shoe: But at the same time, some people treat this issue unrealistically, at times.

Your solution is to basically buy the phone, but then refuse to use the services it provides (texting, phone calls...)
And you think others aren't being realistic.

The rational approach is to ensure that companies do not spy on citizenry in conjunction with the U.S. Government. The rational approach is to ensure our government is limited, where they should be, in their power.
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Your solution is to basically buy the phone, but then refuse to use the services it provides (texting, phone calls...)
And you think others aren't being realistic.
Again, it is one strategy. And the funny thing about you pretending to act incredulous about it is that people use this approach on their phones all the time. And people are GOING to buy cell phones anyway, so that point carries little weight.

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The rational approach is to ensure that companies do not spy on citizenry in conjunction with the U.S. Government. The rational approach is to ensure our government is limited, where they should be, in their power.
No one is saying otherwise. But you're only interested in one side of the problem, whereas I'm saying both are important. I'm saying the part you're only focused on is important, and people engaging in better security practices is needed as well.
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

AT&T doesn't know it but I'm spying on them
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
Well kinda. When a person is out in public there is a diminished expectation of privacy. Here is a case:

Upskirt Photos Should Be Illegal Everywhere | Time.com

Now here is a photographer that practiced street photography:

https://www.google.com/search?q=robe...EdDPMQ_AUIBigB

These are all perfectly legal.
They may have been legal at the time they were taken. If you'll notice, I don't see a one on there newer than the 1960s.

Being in public, while there is a limited permission for a diminished expectation of privacy, does not include being used for monetary gain. Public figures such as celebrities whose intent is to increase their visibility to increase their public draw, is different from the average person conducting their life.

Once an image is captured for the purpose of monetary gain (excluding the above) then a release is necessary.
The capture and release of general data, such as with phones, buying cards, etcetera, must be disclosed prior to use, or for specific data, a warrant must be issued.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:34 PM
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Post Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Again, it is one strategy. And the funny thing about you pretending to act incredulous about it is that people use this approach on their phones all the time.
Again, you fail to appreciate the actual context of my position.
It revolves around your comments on the situation: "But at the same time, some people treat this issue unrealistically, at times."

What you describe goes above and beyond. And some do perform those actions.
But we should never accept it as necessary.
Like with the rape example, if some people want to take precautions, that's their prerogative.
The cell company is essentially institutionalizing the analogous rape. Making it a practice. With no repercussions from the law.
THAT is where the problem NEEDS to get fixed.


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And people are GOING to buy cell phones anyway, so that point carries little weight.
Again, you're missing the point.
You tried to denigrate those who don't take the precautions you described. Those who are going to get "raped" regardless.

I never intimated that people weren't going to buy cell phones.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
No one is saying otherwise. But you're only interested in one side of the problem, whereas I'm saying both are important.

And you've only shown real interest in one side of the problem. Chastising the rape victims and refusing to even comment on the institutionalized rape.
You made some comment about "I'm totally against the govt. infringing in this area.", but failed to realize It's AT&T which is the real problem here. That is where the problem needs to be stopped.

The government buying this data? I think that's actually legal as they didn't coerce or instigate the sale. It's still wrong, but the real area where this needs to be stopped is AT&T (and similar companies).

Your analogies regarding cameras are out to lunch.
It would be more appropriate to talk about people taking pictures and then getting the pictures developed at XYZ Camera Development. XYZ Camera Development develops your pictures, but then keeps a copy for themselves which they sell to the government.


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Originally Posted by Mikeyy View Post
AT&T doesn't know it but I'm spying on them.
There are better laws protecting against you spying on them than there are protecting you from them spying on you...
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Old 02-28-2017, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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And you've only shown real interest in one side of the problem. Chastising the rape victims and refusing to even comment on the institutionalized rape. You made some comment about "I'm totally against the govt. infringing in this area.", but failed to realize It's AT&T which is the real problem here. That is where the problem needs to be stopped.
Both AT&T AND the govt. are culpable and part of the 'real problem' here--not just AT&T.
"The Hemisphere Project, also called simply Hemisphere, is a mass surveillance program conducted by US telephone company AT&T and paid for by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy and the Drug Enforcement Administration.[1] AT&T employees work alongside the DEA and local law enforcement agencies at High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area offices in Los Angeles, Atlanta, Dallas and Houston,[2] where they supply officials with metadata from a database of telephone calls" ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemisphere_Project
And of course I'm against AT&T doing this too.

Before you just reply in a knee-jerk reaction ... THINK ABOUT WHAT I JUST WROTE THERE. There is NO reason you shouldn't be able to agree with that, other than pure belligerence.
As all can see here (other than you apparently), no one is "chastising victims" here in any way, or "denigrating" them. That's just hyperbole on your part. But this is a broader problem than just finger-pointing at a single company; all of society has to take some responsibility for their privacy. What you're doing is like refusing to work on a broader strategy about avoiding rape in terms of an overall picture. Again, it is irresponsible to not avoid, say, walking alone at night in high-crime areas, for example. That's not blaming the victim --its just practicing good common-sense measures. There needs to be BOTH approaches.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Your analogies regarding cameras are out to lunch.
That was only in reference to the fact technology is moving forward and people have to sometimes adjust and learn how to deal with said technology to help ensure safety. (Again, an analogy would be avoiding high-crime areas alone.) Others here seem to get that, based on their comments about covering their webcams and so forth. I don't know why you can't seem to get it and are just being argumentative, other than your usual axe you have to grind for whatever reason.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:21 PM
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Post Re: AT&T Is Spying on Americans for Profit, New Documents Reveal

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Both AT&T AND the govt. are culpable and part of the 'real problem' here--not just AT&T.
"The Hemisphere Project, also called simply Hemisphere, is a mass surveillance program conducted by US telephone company AT&T and paid for by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy and the Drug Enforcement Administration.[1] AT&T employees work alongside the DEA and local law enforcement agencies at High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area offices in Los Angeles, Atlanta, Dallas and Houston,[2] where they supply officials with metadata from a database of telephone calls" ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemisphere_Project
And of course I'm against AT&T doing this too.

Before you just reply in a knee-jerk reaction ... THINK ABOUT WHAT I JUST WROTE THERE. There is NO reason you shouldn't be able to agree with that, other than pure belligerence.

Suppose the cops want to see the inside of Martin's house.
Martin has a room-mate John. The cops ask John (while Martin isn't home) if they can come in and take a look.
That's perfectly legal. The cops did nothing wrong and no rights were violated. If John lets the cops in, that's valid today.
Martin may have a problem with John's actions. And that's where we are.

Here, I think the government shouldn't be involved in purchasing this information. But I see as the root of the problem that AT&T collected the data and made it available in the first place. The cops simply purchased something that was available.
My issue is that it should *not* have been available for purchase in the first place.
That is where I see the root of the problem.

And I hate to break it to your ego, but I saw that as the root of the problem before you spoke up. For the above reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
As all can see here (other than you apparently), no one is "chastising victims" here in any way, or "denigrating" them.
That's exactly what you did in post #15.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
But this is a broader problem than just finger-pointing at a single company; all of society has to take some responsibility for their privacy. What you're doing is like refusing to work on a broader strategy about avoiding rape in terms of an overall picture. Again, it is irresponsible to not avoid, say, walking alone at night in high-crime areas, for example. That's not blaming the victim --its just practicing good common-sense measures. There needs to be BOTH approaches.
I find it appropro that you compare AT&T's tactics to "high-crime areas".
And the police should be heavily engaged in reducing those "high-crime areas", just like our government should be involved in eliminating AT&T's tactics.

I refer back to the advice you gave which essentially makes ALL areas "high-crime areas". A person cannot even use their cell service for phone calls or texting. They have to resort to wifi coverage.

But here's the real rub.
What AT&T is doing is legal.
The analogy here would be that a form of rape would be legal.
I think a better analogy given all the factors would be in criticizing a wife for when the husband rapes her (before that was recognized as illegal rape). Advising the wife as to how she could help prevent it, but at the end of the day it's still legal for the husband to do so.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
That was only in reference to the fact technology is moving forward and ...
Going to stop you right there.
Has nothing to do with what's going on in this thread.
This isn't, in any real sense of the issue, about technology "moving forward".
The kicker is that trying to divert back to this example is going back to the whole "blaming the victim" approach.

If this WERE about cameras, I would agree with you. I've posted threads in the past about cameras being used by the government to capture info on people driving on the highways.
I find that perfectly legal.
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Last edited by foundit66; 03-02-2017 at 11:49 AM..
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