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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo at the Political Forums; Man was trapped in his own body for 12 years Trapped and aware for twelve years. But thankfully, nobody was ...

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Old 02-06-2015, 01:25 PM
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Default Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

Man was trapped in his own body for 12 years

Trapped and aware for twelve years. But thankfully, nobody was allowed to pull the plug.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:02 PM
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Post Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

Terry Shivo. Autopsy indicates you REALLY do NOT want to use that in this discussion...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/na...iavo.html?_r=0
Quote:
An autopsy on Terri Schiavo, the severely brain damaged woman whose death sparked an intense debate over a person's right-to-die, showed that her brain was severely "atrophied," weighed less than half of what it should have, and that no treatment could have reversed the damage.

During a televised news conference in Largo, Fla., the Piniellas-Pasco Medical Examiner, Jon Thogmartin, also said the autopsy showed that Ms. Schiavo's condition was "consistent" with a person in a persistent vegetative state. That point had become a key issue in the debate over whether to prolong Ms. Schiavo's life and whether she had a chance to recover normal brain function.
Do you think an individual situation like with Martin Pistorius should dictate that the government inserts itself into what should be a private decision where there are so many more times medical situations that do NOT turn out like Martin?

It's like saying "John's dog survived in his hot car for an hour with the windows rolled up, so that mean it should be legal for anybody to do likewise (ignoring the fact that typically that would result in a tortured and dead dog)."
The exception should not make the rule.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Terry Shivo. Autopsy indicates you REALLY do NOT want to use that in this discussion...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/na...iavo.html?_r=0


Do you think an individual situation like with Martin Pistorius should dictate that the government inserts itself into what should be a private decision where there are so many more times medical situations that do NOT turn out like Martin?

It's like saying "John's dog survived in his hot car for an hour with the windows rolled up, so that mean it should be legal for anybody to do likewise (ignoring the fact that typically that would result in a tortured and dead dog)."
The exception should not make the rule.
Actually the government DID insert itself in the case Terry Shivo.

Her condition is irrelevant. parents were willing to keep her at no cost to the state. Her husband, actually her Ex husband insisted. went to court.

the State has an obligation to save lives, to protect the individual particularly from the selfishness of others. It seldom does that well and in the Shivo case, it did it poorly.

But, from a pro-choice, no personhood to the unconscious guy, your canned response is no surprise.
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:16 PM
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Post Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Actually the government DID insert itself in the case Terry Shivo.
To the extent that they had the legitimate "next of kin" making a medical decision that for some reason needed the government's *permission* to act upon ...
... and then other members of family decided to object.

Yes.

But the government should not have been involved in the first place other than agreeing that Michael had the legal right to make that decision.

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Her condition is irrelevant. parents were willing to keep her at no cost to the state. Her husband, actually her Ex husband insisted. went to court.
Her condition WAS relevant.
It's funny how you trumpet the case of Martin Pistorius's condition and his recovery, but you don't want to acknowledge Terry Schiavo's condition as relevant?

Cherry-picking at its finest.

What her parents were willing to do is irrelevant.
They had no right to insist on anything, as the government had to state.

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
the State has an obligation to save lives, to protect the individual particularly from the selfishness of others. It seldom does that well and in the Shivo case, it did it poorly.

Taking your sentence out of context, that has a LOT that could be implied regarding economic situations where the selfishness of the rich impacts the lives of others and causes poverty.

But on a medical front, no the government does not have an obligation to insert itself into such situations and deny the right of the individual (or the individual's next of kin) to make such medical decisions.

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
But, from a pro-choice, no personhood to the unconscious guy, your canned response is no surprise.
Your comment on "unconscious" is funny considering her parents tried to argue she was conscious.
But hey. Maybe we should have trusted her care to people who didn't even get that right...

Gee. Just a few sentences you were saying Schiavo's condition was irrelevant.
But here you turn around and misrepresent my position, proclaiming her as "unconscious" when it was actually a vegetative state with no hope of recovery...

Her vegetative state was not ended because she was "not a person".
Her vegetative state was ended because there was no hope of recovery.
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

Just an observation, but it seems to me that life really isn't as precious as some make it out to be. People boo and hiss if someone gets unplugged from a machine or takes their own life, but root and cheer when someone shoots a "bad guy" or executes a criminal.
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Old 02-06-2015, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

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Just an observation, but it seems to me that life really isn't as precious as some make it out to be. People boo and hiss if someone gets unplugged from a machine or takes their own life, but root and cheer when someone shoots a "bad guy" or executes a criminal.
As ususal, I am confused by your posting.

Why would humane people not be happy with saving an innocent life? And why would the loss of a threating individual, who has no respect for another, be a bad thing?

When a murderer pleads guilty, as often happens, our system will spend years and thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars to extend that miserable person's life. But the inconvenience of a High maintenance patient suggests merciful termination. And we are often too quick to oblige. And sometimes to committed to oblige.

I have no trouble with the concept of assuring the criminal gets justice, and the verdict is certain and true. But there is no reason to end a life for anyone's convenience, including the accused.

We remove from society those that would harm others. We do so by execution or incarceration. Incarceration means we have many prisons and they are full. (How often do we hear that lament?)

And we are methodically slow to make the final irreversible choice to pull their plug.

But why can we not afford the unconscious similar humanity? So far our hospitals and clinics are not overpopulated with them. Why the rush to pull that plug?

Terry Shivo was not even given a proper and painless execution as we would demand is afforded the most heinous murderer. All because the decision to withhold care is intentional homicide, it legally is not murder.

Terry Shivo did not go to peace in a drug induced sleep. She died in the painful agony of thirst.

This man was lucky. He woke up before it was done to him.
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Old 02-07-2015, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

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Originally Posted by Mellon_Collie View Post
Just an observation, but it seems to me that life really isn't as precious as some make it out to be. People boo and hiss if someone gets unplugged from a machine or takes their own life, but root and cheer when someone shoots a "bad guy" or executes a criminal.
I never considered that. But you're right.
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Old 02-07-2015, 05:56 PM
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Post Re: Lucky guy,,,, They Killed Terry Shivo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellon_Collie View Post
Just an observation, but it seems to me that life really isn't as precious as some make it out to be. People boo and hiss if someone gets unplugged from a machine or takes their own life, but root and cheer when someone shoots a "bad guy" or executes a criminal.
Or quality of life.

We understand ending the suffering of an animal. Nobody questions euthanizing a terminally sick pet. We understand it's an act of mercy.

But with humans, we make it illegal to extend the same mercy in similar circumstances.
Some will declare people to be cowards if they make such quality of life recognitions.
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