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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue" at the Political Forums; "Gay marriage can't be compared to African-Americans' struggle for equal rights, said Republicans in a Senate hearing today. "Traditional marriage ...

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Old 11-11-2011, 04:25 PM
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Default "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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"Gay marriage can't be compared to African-Americans' struggle for equal rights, said Republicans in a Senate hearing today.

"Traditional marriage in many states until the 1960s was limited racially for reasons that had nothing to do with the creation of marriage as an institution and everything to do with racial discrimination," said the committee's ranking member, Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley, at the hearing. He cited the Supreme Court case that ended the ban on interracial marriage. "Loving v. Virginia, which has been referenced a number of times, has nothing to do with gay marriage."

Grassley referred to an op-ed in the New York Times that quotes African-American civil rights leader Wade Henderson of the Leadership Conference as taking umbrage at statements like "gay is the new black" and efforts to liken the struggles of gay Americans to those of black Americans.

The op-ed notes that Henderson supports gay marriage, but points to slavery as a huge difference—as well as the fact that African-Americans "couldn't make a secret of what set them apart from others" during their struggle for justice.

Alabama Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions took it a step further, wondering where the accusations of violating civil rights would stop. He said the traditional definition of marriage as between a man and a woman was a sound one that makes sense, and anything else becomes tricky."
Senate Republicans: Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue - US News and World Report
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

Well, of course that's their stance. They're freakin' Republicans.
Did you expect them to say something different than that?
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:13 PM
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Post Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

Quote:
Gay marriage can't be compared to African-Americans' struggle for equal rights, said Republicans in a Senate hearing today.
Yes.* It can be compared.
How much of an overlap is justified is the real issue.* Whether the lack of overlap negates the underlying argument for gay equality is the real issue.

Part of the problem arises in that the basis of that statement (“can’t be compared”) comes from a subjective moral position that black equality is morally right and gay equality is subject to popular opinion.
If a person divorces themselves from the moral underpinnings of putting the cart before the horse, they will see that the comparison is valid.
*
*
Quote:
"Traditional marriage in many states until the 1960s was limited racially for reasons that had nothing to do with the creation of marriage as an institution and everything to do with racial discrimination," said the committee's ranking member, Iowa Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley, at the hearing.
And if you look at the statistics regarding people against gay marriage, you’ll see that the majority object to gay equality even if you change the name.
That points rather vigorously to recognizing that for most people against gay marriage, it is about the discrimination against gays.* And they want that discrimination against gays even if the name “marriage” is not used.
*
Furthermore, the statement has a false presumption that the “creation of marriage as an institution” is somehow a constant.
In fact, anti-gay marriage proponents ignore a lot of history regarding marriage and why marriage was recognized historically.
*
*
Quote:
He cited the Supreme Court case that ended the ban on interracial marriage. "Loving v. Virginia, which has been referenced a number of times, has nothing to do with gay marriage."
This is a pointless observation.
Loving v Virginia referenced other court rulings numerous times that had nothing to do with interracial marriage.
Was that wrong?
No.
*
The reality is that such court cases take a variety of facts and precedents into account in their assessment.
Loving v Virginia is convenient in how it conclusively announces that marriage is a right.
It should be noted that as it does it in the basis of its ruling, it NEVER requires a preceding ruling which says “interracial marriage is a right”.*

Quote:
Grassley referred to an op-ed in the New York Times that quotes African-American civil rights leader Wade Henderson of the Leadership Conference as taking umbrage at statements like "gay is the new black" and efforts to liken the struggles of gay Americans to those of black Americans.
Wade Henderson doesn’t own a trademark on the black civil rights movements and what it is compared to.
I could just as easily point out to Martin Luther King’s widow who proclaimed that MLK would have favored gay equality.
Gay Marriage: What Would Martin Luther King Jr Do?


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The op-ed notes that Henderson supports gay marriage, but points to slavery as a huge difference—as well as the fact that African-Americans "couldn't make a secret of what set them apart from others" during their struggle for justice.
Yes.* Slavery is a huge difference.
But does it invalidate the comparison?

Is somebody under the misconception that black equality was predicated on a prior slave history?
To put it another way, if blacks had NEVER had been slaves, would the argument for black equality be somehow undermined?
The answer is obviously no.


Quote:
Alabama Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions took it a step further, wondering where the accusations of violating civil rights would stop. He said the traditional definition of marriage as between a man and a woman was a sound one that makes sense, and anything else becomes tricky.
How does it “make sense” other than it is consistent with the conclusion he likes?
You can’t argue that marriage is about procreation.* That argument fails when you recognize that couples who cannot procreate are still allowed to marry.
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

Funny, racial discrimination and sexual discrimination is still... what's that word? Oh yeah...

Discrimination.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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Funny, racial discrimination and sexual discrimination is still... what's that word? Oh yeah...

Discrimination.
I don't think anyone is arguing that marriage restrictions aren't a form of "discrimination" (in an truly objective sense of the word). Just like we would also not argue it's NOT discrimination that we don't allow incest marriages or polygamous marriages. A truly completely non-discriminatory world would be anything-goes, and a mess of chaos.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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I don't think anyone is arguing that marriage restrictions aren't a form of "discrimination" (in an truly objective sense of the word). Just like we would also not argue it's NOT discrimination that we don't allow incest marriages or polygamous marriages. A truly completely non-discriminatory world would be anything-goes, and a mess of chaos.
Ah... but there are legal justifications for why incest and polygamous marriage are/should be illegal. There is NOT the same justification for why marriage is barred for homosexuals.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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Ah... but there are legal justifications for why incest and polygamous marriage are/should be illegal. There is NOT the same justification for why marriage is barred for homosexuals.
Sure there are. DOMA is one such legal justification. (Which is, of course, why 'priders are wanting so badly to get it voted away. On one hand they demand legal justification, but when they see it is clearly in place, they ingeniously try to get that justification removed. Quite the 'stragetizers', they are!! Nyuk, nyuk!)
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Sure there are. DOMA is one such legal justification. (Which is, of course, why 'priders are wanting so badly to get it voted away. On one hand they demand legal justification, but when they see it is clearly in place, they ingeniously try to get that justification removed. Quite the 'stragetizers', they are!! Nyuk, nyuk!)
You obviously fail to understand legal justification. DOMA (despite being unconstitutional as we'll see in the near future) has no legal basis for it's discrimination. There is no measurable social harm caused by homosexuals getting married. It cannot pass a rational basis constitutional review. The congress must have a rational basis to discriminate against people when codifying law. Rational basis means that the congress would have to be protecting marriage from a demonstrable harm (and there isn't one) or congress would have to show that there a social benefit that outweighs the discrimination (and again, there isn't one). The test case is in the pipe right now that will directly challenge the constitutionality of DOMA, as no case has tested DOMA on it's merits before.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
You obviously fail to understand legal justification. DOMA (despite being unconstitutional as we'll see in the near future) has no legal basis for it's discrimination. There is no measurable social harm caused by homosexuals getting married. It cannot pass a rational basis constitutional review. The congress must have a rational basis to discriminate against people when codifying law. Rational basis means that the congress would have to be protecting marriage from a demonstrable harm (and there isn't one) or congress would have to show that there a social benefit that outweighs the discrimination (and again, there isn't one). The test case is in the pipe right now that will directly challenge the constitutionality of DOMA, as no case has tested DOMA on it's merits before.
Obviously Clinton and the crafters of DOMA felt they DID have rational basis. And the very question of rational basis is a matter of opinion--so you're begging the question there. The other issue which you didn't even address is that by applying this so-called 'rational basis' test' of harm, ANYTHING would be allowed as marriage, to the point where the institution becomes pointless. How is it that polygamous marriage is harmful? How is it that incest marriage is harmful? Arguments that they are hurtful are hardly better (or no better) than such arguments about gay marriage. This is why the only real solution would be to do away with marriage benefits altogether, period. Hey, you'd have your equality, and it would avoid a mess waiting to blow up.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: "Gay Marriage Not a Civil Rights Issue"

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Obviously Clinton and the crafters of DOMA felt they DID have rational basis.
Sure, but that doesn't mean they did.

Quote:
And the very question of rational basis is a matter of opinion--so you're begging the question there.
Actually, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of jurisprudence. Rational basis has been well defined in our legal jurisprudence so it's not begging the question, it's meeting the legal test.

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The other issue which you didn't even address is that by applying this so-called 'rational basis' test' of harm, ANYTHING would be allowed as marriage, to the point where the institution becomes pointless.
Scare tactic and completely untrue.

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How is it that polygamous marriage is harmful? How is it that incest marriage is harmful?
Well it's not really my job to do your analysis for you. But, to help you along, you should research the inherent control relationships that are found in incest and polygamous cases. Those are absent in gay marriage.

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Arguments that they are hurtful are hardly better (or no better) than such arguments about gay marriage.
Psychologists, Sociologists, and legal philosophers disagree.

Quote:
This is why the only real solution would be to do away with marriage benefits altogether, period. Hey, you'd have your equality, and it would avoid a mess waiting to blow up.
Do away with marriage as a legal institution period? When heterosexuals are willing to take that as an option, we'll gladly accept. Until that day, we insist they follow established jurisprudence and that will come out in the wash.
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