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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage... at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by dabateman This douchebag... Yep. This is a good way to end all debate. This merits three bananas ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2011, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post


This douchebag...
Yep. This is a good way to end all debate. This merits three bananas and two footballs.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2011, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
Agreed.



All of which come at prohibitive costs to homosexuals when heterosexuals receive them, in mass, as part of a single, institutional package. There's nothing equal about that.
The issue is a limited, medical power of attorney. Executing it requires as little as filling out a simple form downloaded from the Internet and getting it notarized at little to no cost, that is hardly burdensome. The law merely grants default preference to the spouse if the person didn't make the trivial effort to specify someone else rather than create a routine situation where a patient lingers in intensive care at great cost and suffering while a court sorts the situation out.

What about single people? Aren't they dicriminated against by your definition?

If anyone here doesn't have a medical power of attorney and advance directives in place, you ought to take a look at doing them out of consideration for the person making the call. Do not interpret this as legal advice.


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But they have a much greater difficulty doing so when the will is bound by a marriage contract. Transfer of property between spouses is automatic and assumed.
Yes, the law allows pretty much automatic transfer to spouses in the absence of a will. But in the case of two single people the marriage preference wouldn't apply. However, it would seem that a will naming a beneficiary ought to prevail. Leona Helmsley left the bulk of her estate to her pooch, surely there was some human who felt they were entitled to it.

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And that's changed over time as well.
Of course the law changes over time. The change should be driven by the electoral process, not by judicial decree.


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Only when the state has a vested interest in prohibiting the behavior.
Who determines this "vested interest?" The voters as they did with Prop 8 in California or the gay Federal judge who decreed the role of father and mother to be interchangable when he overrode the will of the People? Which represents democracy, a popular vote or the decree of a political appointee with a lifetime tenure?

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These processes have checks and balances against having a tyranny of the majority over the liberty of the individual.
They certainly do have checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority but they also allow the majority to express their will through laws that define marriage. The big problem with gay "rights" advocates is their willingness to dispense with these checks and balances such as overturning Prop 8 by judicial decree or abandoning defense of the DOMA or refusing to fund a campus group because they are not gay "friendly" or barring someone from a profession because they think homosexuality is wrong.

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There are places that don't have such balances...Iran might be more to your liking.
Dictatorships like Iran are the reason I oppose undermining the republic we enjoy in the USA. Our liberties will not be taken from us at one time, they will be eroded gradually by special interest groups asserting "rights", abetted by an overreaching judiciary and politicians trading liberty for votes.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Does marriage have a religious connotation? Not anymore.
I would argue that the state has no business whatsoever in the institution of marriage; and that anything, therefore, that promotes the concept of the state's sanctioning marriage, should be opposed.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-19-2011, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The issue is a limited, medical power of attorney. Executing it requires as little as filling out a simple form downloaded from the Internet and getting it notarized at little to no cost, that is hardly burdensome. The law merely grants default preference to the spouse if the person didn't make the trivial effort to specify someone else rather than create a routine situation where a patient lingers in intensive care at great cost and suffering while a court sorts the situation out.
No, the issue is not simply a limited medical power of attorney. The issue is the default preferential treatment that the spouse (Sharp v Perez -- "one person designated as irreplaceable") in all dealings. The issue here is that spouses are treated as, essentially, one person in the eyes of the law. Property is tranferred between them without penalty or tax liability. Power of attorney is irrelevant because it is an assumed power between spouses. The list goes on and on.

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What about single people? Aren't they dicriminated against by your definition?
No.

Quote:
If anyone here doesn't have a medical power of attorney and advance directives in place, you ought to take a look at doing them out of consideration for the person making the call. Do not interpret this as legal advice.
Thank you for the nonlegal advice. Now back to the topic of the thread...


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Yes, the law allows pretty much automatic transfer to spouses in the absence of a will. But in the case of two single people the marriage preference wouldn't apply. However, it would seem that a will naming a beneficiary ought to prevail. Leona Helmsley left the bulk of her estate to her pooch, surely there was some human who felt they were entitled to it.
Which has what to do with the price of tea in China?

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Of course the law changes over time. The change should be driven by the electoral process, not by judicial decree.
That's not how it works in a Constitutional Republic when a law is deemed to not be in line with the standards outlined in the Constitution. You know...judicial branch and all that.

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Who determines this "vested interest?" The voters as they did with Prop 8 in California or the gay Federal judge who decreed the role of father and mother to be interchangable when he overrode the will of the People? Which represents democracy, a popular vote or the decree of a political appointee with a lifetime tenure?
Well if we lived in a direct democracy and not a republic, you would have a point. However, our republic and the Constitution which forms it prescribes specific mechanisms for making sure that the majority does not exert tyranny over the minority.

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They certainly do have checks and balances to prevent the tyranny of the majority but they also allow the majority to express their will through laws that define marriage.
Since when? Where is marriage defined in our Constitution? Where is there language, thus far, in our Constitution which specifically makes illegal for some what is deemed to be a right by common law for others?

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The big problem with gay "rights" advocates is their willingness to dispense with these checks and balances such as overturning Prop 8 by judicial decree
Because it didn't pass Constitutional muster.

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or abandoning defense of the DOMA
Why defend something that you don't agree with?

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or refusing to fund a campus group because they are not gay "friendly"
Free market sucks when it's not going in your favor, huh?

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or barring someone from a profession because they think homosexuality is wrong.
I agree. That's just plain wrong. Unless it hinders their ability to do their job in the case of a psychologist or therapist who uses their disagreement with homosexuality to justify using junk science and dangerous conversion therapies.

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Dictatorships like Iran are the reason I oppose undermining the republic we enjoy in the USA. Our liberties will not be taken from us at one time, they will be eroded gradually by special interest groups asserting "rights", abetted by an overreaching judiciary and politicians trading liberty for votes.
That sounds like so much tin foil hat speak for "the homos are going to destroy america". But I'll humor it. Exactly how are homos getting married eroding your liberty?
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I would argue that the state has no business whatsoever in the institution of marriage; and that anything, therefore, that promotes the concept of the state's sanctioning marriage, should be opposed.
Not to be redundant (if I could find my previous post, I'd just link to it), but that opinion has nothing to do with equality.
First all citizens need equal civil rights protections; then work on doing away with state-sanctioned marriage and the legal rights implicit therein.

If you were an animal rights activist who opposed zoos because it's cruel to keep animals in cages, would you support a Jim Crow-era segregation law that forbid blacks to visit zoos and permitted only whites to visit them? Isn't there room in your philosophy for the possibility that both are wrong and need to be combated- zoos and racial segregation? (or, in your case, state-sanctioned marriage and discrimination against homosexuals)?
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
Not to be redundant (if I could find my previous post, I'd just link to it), but that opinion has nothing to do with equality.
First all citizens need equal civil rights protections; then work on doing away with state-sanctioned marriage and the legal rights implicit therein.

If you were an animal rights activist who opposed zoos because it's cruel to keep animals in cages, would you support a Jim Crow-era segregation law that forbid blacks to visit zoos and permitted only whites to visit them? Isn't there room in your philosophy for the possibility that both are wrong and need to be combated- zoos and racial segregation? (or, in your case, state-sanctioned marriage and discrimination against homosexuals)?
It is a deeply flawed analogy.

If I were "an animal rights activist who opposed zoos because it's cruel to keep animals in cages," I would focus all of my energy upon abolishing zoos--not split it betwwen that and a desire to achieve racial equality, at the expense of the caged animals.

Moreover, I reject this flippant comparison between race and sexual orientation, that attempts to transmute gay marriage into the twenty-first-century equivalent of the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and '60s...
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Moreover, I reject this flippant comparison between race and sexual orientation, that attempts to transmute gay marriage into the twenty-first-century equivalent of the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and '60s...
Your rejection doesn't make the comparison any less valid.

When are you people going to get it through your heads that your rejection or acceptance isn't what's at stake here?
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Moreover, I reject this flippant comparison between race and sexual orientation, that attempts to transmute gay marriage into the twenty-first-century equivalent of the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and '60s...
The issue isn't sexual orientation, but rather gender.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
The issue isn't sexual orientation, but rather gender.
You lost me here. Men and women have the same rights.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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You lost me here. Men and women have the same rights.
A man can marry a woman, but a woman can't.
A woman can marry a man, but a man can't.

No, they do not have the same rights.

When it comes to marriage, sexual orientation is completely irrelevant. The only thing relevant is gender.
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