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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage... at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Joe Shoe There certainly are "tangible" legitimate state interests in not encouraging gay relationships by giving the ...

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Old 11-12-2011, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
There certainly are "tangible" legitimate state interests in not encouraging gay relationships by giving the stamp of state sanction. One look at the was STD rates are getting worse than they ever have among gay the number re higher among women than in the past. Other stats have made it clear that drug are rampant in the gay lifestyle.
Huh?
You're saying the STD rate is getting higher among gay women than in the past?
I'd have to see some statistics before I'd believe that. You've got some, I assume?
If true (statistics I've seen show the opposite- extremely low STD rates among gay women; far lower than among heteros), you'll need to explain how preventing gay marriage is likely to stop this alleged trend.
Since the STD rate among heterosexuals is higher, shouldn't we prevent traditional marriage then as well, if preventing marriage is a valid means of lowering the STD rate, and if you believe the State has a legitimate interest in doing so in the first place?
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Huh?
You're saying the STD rate is getting higher among gay women than in the past?
I'd have to see some statistics before I'd believe that. You've got some, I assume?
If true (statistics I've seen show the opposite- extremely low STD rates among gay women; far lower than among heteros), you'll need to explain how preventing gay marriage is likely to stop this alleged trend.
Since the STD rate among heterosexuals is higher, shouldn't we prevent traditional marriage then as well, if preventing marriage is a valid means of lowering the STD rate, and if you believe the State has a legitimate interest in doing so in the first place?
OK. Dante's back (by popular demand ).

Under the 14th Amendment, shouldn't I have the right to fall in love with my sterile sister and "marry" her. Shouldn't "marriage" be extended to that relation?

Answer: No. Incest is morally wrong, even with a sterile sister.

If not, am I not the victim of discrimination of the same type as two sissies who want to get "married"?

Answer: No. Homosexual acts are morally wrong, and shouldn't be sanctioned by our core civilizing institutions - marriage and family - because it degrades them.

What if I want to "marry" my sheep? Should the law discriminate against me (and my sheep)?

Dante.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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OK. Dante's back (by popular demand ).

Under the 14th Amendment, shouldn't I have the right to fall in love with my sterile sister and "marry" her. Shouldn't "marriage" be extended to that relation?

Answer: No. Incest is morally wrong, even with a sterile sister.

If not, am I not the victim of discrimination of the same type as two sissies who want to get "married"?

Answer: No. Homosexual acts are morally wrong, and shouldn't be sanctioned by our core civilizing institutions - marriage and family - because it degrades them.

What if I want to "marry" my sheep? Should the law discriminate against me (and my sheep)?

Dante.

Does this have something to do with Joe Shoe's bizarre and unsupported assertion that same-sex marriage should be illegal because STD rates among females are on the rise?
And if not, why quote my response to him?
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by Dante2 View Post
OK. Dante's back (by popular demand ).

Under the 14th Amendment, shouldn't I have the right to fall in love with my sterile sister and "marry" her. Shouldn't "marriage" be extended to that relation?

Answer: No. Incest is morally wrong, even with a sterile sister.
But the assumption is that most gay couples who want to marry aren't brothers or sisters.

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If not, am I not the victim of discrimination of the same type as two sissies who want to get "married"?
"Sissies?" Seriously?

Quote:
Answer: No. Homosexual acts are morally wrong, and shouldn't be sanctioned by our core civilizing institutions - marriage and family - because it degrades them.
Does consensual anal sex performed on a woman by her husband degrade the marriage? If so, then should heterosexuals also not be allowed to marry?

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What if I want to "marry" my sheep? Should the law discriminate against me (and my sheep)?
No one is asking for goat and sheep marriages. This is an example of a preposterous scenario stretched far beyond the limits of common sense in order to make a point against future--or current--guidelines. It's as irrelevant as saying a single, straight woman shouldn't be allowed to own a dog because she might be tempted to teach it to perform cunnilingus on her.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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No one is asking for goat and sheep marriages.
And even if they were, sex with animals is against the law because animals, like children, are incapable of informed consent to sex.
No one is seeking to marry 5-year-olds, either; the law prohibits sexual contact between adults and children, and also between adults and animals, so obviously it would not permit marriage between them under any circumstances.

This has nothing to do with two consenting adults of either sex marrying.
Same-sex intercourse is not against the law, and neither are homosexual relationships, nor should they be. They involve two consenting adults.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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And even if they were, sex with animals is against the law because animals, like children, are incapable of informed consent to sex.
No one is seeking to marry 5-year-olds, either; the law prohibits sexual contact between adults and children, and also between adults and animals, so obviously it would not permit marriage between them under any circumstances.

This has nothing to do with two consenting adults of either sex marrying.
Same-sex intercourse is not against the law, and neither are homosexual relationships, nor should they be. They involve two consenting adults.
And that is completely aside from the fact that marriage is a contract. Neither a sheep nor a 5-year-old human is legally competent to sign a contract.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
Huh?
You're saying the STD rate is getting higher among gay women than in the past?
I'd have to see some statistics before I'd believe that. You've got some, I assume?
If true (statistics I've seen show the opposite- extremely low STD rates among gay women; far lower than among heteros), you'll need to explain how preventing gay marriage is likely to stop this alleged trend.
Since the STD rate among heterosexuals is higher, shouldn't we prevent traditional marriage then as well, if preventing marriage is a valid means of lowering the STD rate, and if you believe the State has a legitimate interest in doing so in the first place?
Actually, I meant men, not women. The response was composed on a mobile phone and it didn't make sense afterwards.

STD rates are definitely higher among gay men. (And continue to get worse as society gets more and more tolerant to gay sex.) So there are state interests in said discrimination.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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You're getting lost in your own propaganda.

OF COURSE we are saying that it should be used to grant gay marriage equality.
What we are NOT saying is that any circumstance would automatically fall through and be recognized as well.
But with the way the amendment has to be approached for gay marriage, it WOULD potentially any circumstance. How does gay marriage use the 14th and not polygamous marriage, or incestuous marriage? If you can't see the problem with such a blank check approach to the 14th, you clearly aren't thinking.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I already CLEARLY stated: "Note: I'm not saying "gay marriage" is automatically a right.
I am saying that MARRIAGE is a right, and as such it invokes certain protections and requirements."
If that's the case then any sort of marriage would be a right--polygamous, and incestuous, for example. Under the CURRENT definition (DOMA), marriage is currently defined as between a man and a woman, therefore when one says "marriage is a right" it means opposite-sex.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
And when the tests for those protections are applied to gay marriage, the justification for discriminating against gay marriage fail.
Specifically, the main REAL argument against gay marriage is a futile pretense that somehow "majority" justifies discrimination.
It does not. A legitimate state interest is required to backup the majority.
"Majority" is not the argument I'm making, so address it to someone who has.
The legitimate state interest has been shown time after time. Gay sexual unions are clearly harmful. Your STD rates are ridiculously higher than others as CDC stats show every year, and stats show drug use is much higher.

Nevertheless, I think the best solution (due to the problem and loopholes that has been shown in the way gay 'priders have co-opted marriage) is to remove benefits from marriage altogether for everyone. That's the only way to have real equality as marriage is always going to be a discriminatory institution otherwise.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
You're going to ignore all that, aren't you...
Unless you're planning to misrepresent things, as you can see I didn't ignore it at all.

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Your claim is blatantly false. When the 14th amendment test for equal protection is applied, some forms of discrimination do pass. For example, pedophilia marriage would be blocked because child molestation harms children. Protecting children is a tangible legitimate state interest, as opposed to arbitrary "moral" claims. Ergo, laws requiring age restrictions are justifiable.
That example is so easy it's laughable. Try a real comparison, for which there is more reason to reject than "gay marriage": polygamy or something else.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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And even if they were, sex with animals is against the law because animals, like children, are incapable of informed consent to sex.
No one is seeking to marry 5-year-olds, either; the law prohibits sexual contact between adults and children, and also between adults and animals, so obviously it would not permit marriage between them under any circumstances.

This has nothing to do with two consenting adults of either sex marrying.
Same-sex intercourse is not against the law, and neither are homosexual relationships, nor should they be. They involve two consenting adults.
You're missing the point.
With every change to marriage, another qualifier is added to allow whatever said group that comes along to co-opt marriage.

It WAS a man and a women.
Then priders realized they had to add 'consent' as a qualifier to keep anyone from pointing out that by broadening marriage, it makes it no better than marriage to animals, etc. So conveniently, they played up 'consent' as a qualifier.
Then, in order to take another out of the picture another qualifier was added: "adults". That ensured gay marriage can avoid being compared to underage marriages.
And by using "adults" instead of man/women, the gender issue is circumvented.

Now we're up to at least 3 qualifiers all for the sake of avoiding comparisons. One has to wonder what's next to be played up. Will the qualifier "two" be changed? That's about the last vestige of traditionalism left to the marriage standard from before 'priders started bastardizing the standards. Whatever ensures gays can sterilize their arguments from any challenge.

It's not that the "gay" part of gay marriage that is the problem--it's the fact that the effect of what you're doing makes marriage open-ended and more and more an anything-goes institution.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: The Dumbest Argument Against Gay Marriage...

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You're missing the point.
With every change to marriage, another qualifier is added to allow whatever said group that comes along to co-opt marriage.

It WAS a man and a women.
No, it was a man and a woman of the same race. Damn those blacks for changing the meaning of marriage!

And there is no other 'group' trying to co-opt marriage. The 'group' is men and women. Oddly enough, that's the same 'group' that's always been involved in marriage.
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