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Civil Rights & Abortion Discuss Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by foundit66 It's amusing to see you say you aren't sure why I want these marital benefits / ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2011, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
It's amusing to see you say you aren't sure why I want these marital benefits / rights, but then you completely fail to address the point I made.

Can you address the issue I raised?
Maybe just try?

One of the marital rights / benefits / entanglements (as you put it) empowers a spouse to make medical decisions in case the other spouse is incapacitated.
We have similar legislation which allows family members similar powers, but typically the marital powers trumps the familial powers (which can be reviewed on a case-by-case basis).

If the government removes the marital "entanglements", that would leave the "family" to make such decisions with the spouse's powers removed...

Maybe a better question should be how you could just plain ignore that...
Maybe the better answer is to give power of attorney to those that you trust, and to leave guvco out of it altogether.
You are arguing for more government involvement in your personal life and I am arguing against it, regardless of your sexual preference.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Unfortunately the right to marry whom you are in love with/attracted to only applies to heterosexuals.
Not quite so cut and dried as all that.
Monogamy is also legislated.
Siblings can't marry either.
Parent/child marriages are also against the law.

I am against the government involvement in marriage that restricts those things also, are you? Or are you focused solely on homosexual marriage?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2011, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by Pat View Post
Not quite so cut and dried as all that.
Monogamy is also legislated.
Siblings can't marry either.
Parent/child marriages are also against the law.

I am against the government involvement in marriage that restricts those things also, are you? Or are you focused solely on homosexual marriage?
Well I think the state has legitimate state interests in close relations marrying, but other than that, I tend to believe that the government should allow consenting adults to make decisions about their marital associations.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:45 PM
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Post Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by OftenCold
These would be special rights, of course. As I've pointed out, homosexuals have exactly the same marital rights as anyone else. Straights aren't allowed to have same-sex marriages either.
You are confusing "same restrictions" with "same rights".

A law that prevents people from marrying outside their own race is (by your logic) equal rights, correct?

Except SCOTUS rejected this thinking, recognizing that "equal restriction" IS NOT the same thing as "equal rights".

I have repeatedly asked you in reply to your above claim if it is an "equal right" to outlaw the star of david and the yarmulke.
After all, by your logic both the Christian and the Jew are then equally restricted from wearing Jewish symbols, are they not...


Quote:
Originally Posted by OftenCold
You know, the push for same-sex marriage has to be one or the worst PR campaigns in history.
I beg to differ.
Don't judge things based on whether YOUR opinion has changed or not...

The opinion polls on gay marriage over the years have continually improved for gay equality.
Slowly but surely, the opinions are changing.

While it is true that the anti-gay marriage side has more points on the board, the pro-gay marriage side is steadily increasing their score on the score-board.
Given more time on the clock, "who's winning" is going to change..


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Originally Posted by OftenCold
That's because of the instance on the use of the word, "marriage," which is freighted with tradition, history, religiosity and convention. If the gays had invented an identical institution with the same legal rights, the resistance would have been fractional.
Marital traditions have ALWAYS changed over time.
The previous trend used to be saying "No" to interracial marriage.

While the MODERN definition is INCLUSIVE for interracial marriage, the mid 1960's definition was not.
The definition of "marriage" and what is acceptable DOES CHANGE over time.

Today's standards which today's people insist need to be stagnant are going to change again.
In fact, they already are...
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:02 PM
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Post Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by Pat View Post
Maybe the better answer is to give power of attorney to those that you trust, and to leave guvco out of it altogether.
And how much $$$ needs to be given to a lawyer to draft up that power of attorney?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat
You are arguing for more government involvement in your personal life and I am arguing against it, regardless of your sexual preference.
No.
That's what you fail to understand.
If you have a spouse and family fighting over medical powers, that isn't "personal life".
I'm talking about the government resolving a legal dispute.

Do you think a legal court dispute between family and spouse as to medical decisions is "personal life"?
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Well I think the state has legitimate state interests in close relations marrying, but other than that, I tend to believe that the government should allow consenting adults to make decisions about their marital associations.
I don't "tend to believe it".
Consenting adults can do what they want (as long as it doesn't infringe upon another person), guvco needs to butt out.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
And how much $$$ needs to be given to a lawyer to draft up that power of attorney?
I drafted mine with $40 software.
Living will, final will, power of attorney among other things

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No.
That's what you fail to understand.
If you have a spouse and family fighting over medical powers, that isn't "personal life".
I'm talking about the government resolving a legal dispute.

Do you think a legal court dispute between family and spouse as to medical decisions is "personal life"?
Make your wishes known and put them in writing.
In other words, remove the legal dispute before it happens.
Do you want me to spend $40 on the software for you and send the disk?

Damn. You keep arguing as if you need the government to do this for you rather than telling them to get the heck out of your personal life and letting you decide these things on your own.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2011, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by Pat View Post
I don't "tend to believe it".
Consenting adults can do what they want (as long as it doesn't infringe upon another person), guvco needs to butt out.
Well I don't see where you objected to my proviso... Excluding specifically close relations is a legitimate state interest.

So I don't see where we actually disagree.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
Well I don't see where you objected to my proviso... Excluding specifically close relations is a legitimate state interest.

So I don't see where we actually disagree.
We have more agreement on this than disagreement.
I'm more adamant. I don't "tend".
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Gay couples may soon be able to tie the knot in church

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Originally Posted by Pat View Post
We have more agreement on this than disagreement.
I'm more adamant. I don't "tend".
Tend is merely a figure of speech. lol

I think that all consenting non-closely related adults should be able to enter into whatever relationship they find appropriate and the government should support that relationship with basic legal rights of entity creation.
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