Agreed.

The law should be adjusted appropriately.

At the same time, (just to stir it up) should we include those, from birth, that will never be a part of the society and only be a drain on resources?

You know, a similar law has been on the books in California for years.

We definitely disagree here. Murder, in a legal sense, is the willful slaying of a person. Certainly, a woman can confer personhood to her fetus through her intention to gestate just as well as she can deny it with her unwillingness to gestate.

My point is that to offer the woman lattitude in ending her pregnancy while failing to show solidarity of law with her when she chooses to gestate is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Yes but 50 years ago any child born that early would definitely NOT survive so look how far we have come. Science is make leaps everyday.

Good analogy but if that life is taken through no fault of the mother or through no wanting of that loss of life you don't think that is different then the woman making the choice. The choice was taken out of her hands in this case and for that I think the man should be charged with murder for the baby.

I think when a person takes the life of a woman who is pregnant it is an entirley different situation then when a woman chooses to have an abortion.

As for the drain on resources that is not something that can be known until well into the child/persons life.

I understand your logic, but as you said, we disagree.

The 'intent to gestate' does not make the unborn a person. It does not gain that status, legally, until a certain stage of development.

This is not to say that the crime should NOT be punished; certainly it should. I simply don't think that the term MURDER properly applies in this case.

Personhood is an abstract human/legal construct, not a "stage of development". Personhood is conferred to corporate entities and human beings alike.

Tell me...exactly when does the fetus cross this threshhold and become a person? At what point in gestation does the fetus suddenly have personhood aside from that conferred by someone else?

And what? The fetus in the womb is make believe? Imaginary? Are you mad? 2

I know there are those that are big on devaluing the human life in the womb. The fetus is not a person, not a being, ect blah blah blah.

But to insinuate the fetus is somehow "fake," "imaginary," ect as opposed to the born human who is "REAL" well that's taking it a bit far don't you think?

The interesting thing about laws is that one day one thing is wrong then the next day it not. The problem is societies’ laws are subjected to the personal belief or opinion of those who write them, or the people who elects the people who writes those laws.


One of the problems with our world is that people do not really know what is right from what is wrong, let a lone the power to always do what is right. People are like a blind person feeling its way around, never sure where it’s going and what they are grasping.

At the same time wrong is wrong and right is right even if no one knows this. This may seem irrelevant to some and maybe offensive to others, but this problem that mankind find itself in started way back in the Garden of Eden, when humanity's first parents choose to listen to Satan rather than do what God told them.

As a result they came to know good and evil but would not know the difference between one from the other. The prophet Isaiah could not say it better when he said.

Isaiah 59:8-10 (KJV)
8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

judgment:mishpāṭ = Justice

justice:ṣedāqâ = (moral) vertue


Until the day when Jesus returns and take over the rule of sinful man, whom is under the deception of Satan this world will continue to walk and stumble about morally.

Isaiah 2:2-3 (KJV)
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


Isaiah 11:9 (KJV)
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.