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Old 10-08-2019, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Gina Haspel confirmed as CIA director, first woman to lead agency

Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Once again, you are giving an example of something that I never claimed. I agree, torture does not work. However, my OPINION is that waterboarding is not torture. You believe otherwise, that is your OPINION.
(was looking for some other old post and ran across this one ... soo an extremely belated reply.)

Navy SERE trainer Nance
"While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."
Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."

that's his "opinion".

Mancow (radio host) Said he didn't think waterboarding was torture , until he tried it...
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

Conservative atheist Christopher Hicthens said he didn't think waterboarding was torture , until he tried it...
"The conservative writer said he found the treatment terrifying, and was haunted by it for months afterward. Hitchens concluded in the article."
"Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture,"

Navy Seal Jesse Ventura says it's torture

The Head of one military branches SERE training, which prepares military for possible capture. He says waterboarding is torture.

But beyond that U.S. law says it's torture... Until W

In WWII Nazi's and Japanese soldiers where convicted for waterboarding as torture.

-- Despite the claims of many supporters of the CIA’s methods and techniques, torture is not a murky or ill-defined concept. The legal definition of torture to which the U.S. subscribes can be found in the*UN Convention Against Torture:
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."---

Waterboarding has been used as a form of torture since the Middle Ages. Oxford scholar Cecil Roth writes in his book*The Spanish Inquisition:
The water-torture was more ingenious, and more fiendish. The prisoner was fastened almost naked on a sort of trestle with sharp-edged rungs and kept in position with an iron band, his head lower than his feet, and his limbs bound to the side-pieces with agonizing tightness. The mouth was then forced open and a strip of linen inserted into the gullet. Through this, water was poured from a jar (*jarra*), obstructing the throat and nostrils and producing a state of semi-suffocation. The process was repeated time after time, as many as eight*jarras*being applied.

The U.S. military has also always considered waterboarding to be torture. During the U.S. Army Trials of Japanese War Criminals Conducted in Yokohama, Japan,*Yukio Asano was charged*with “Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs.” Among the specifications listed were “beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward.” Asano was convicted of a war crime for waterboarding American prisoners.

--"By claiming that waterboarding is not torture, we are saying that it is*not*a violation of the Geneva Convention. That means that our enemies are legally justified in using this “interrogation” technique on American service members. This fact was recognized by 29 former high-ranking military officers in a*letter sent to Sen. John Warner*about their opposition to the redefinition of the Geneva Convention statutes:
We have abided by this standard in our own conduct for a simple reason: the same standard serves to Protect American servicemen and women when they engage in conflicts covered by Common Article 3. Preserving the integrity of this standard has become increasingly important in recent years when our adversaries often are not nation-states. Congress acted in 1997 to further this goal by criminalizing Violations of Common Article 3 in the War Crimes Act, enabling us to hold accountable those who abuse our captured personnel, no matter the nature of the armed conflict."
Retired Judge Advocates General Write To Sen. Leahy Condemning Waterboarding
November 2, 2007

The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman United States Senate Washington, DC 20510

Dear Chairman Leahy,

In the course of the Senate Judiciary Committeeís consideration of President Bushís nominee for the post of Attorney General, there has been much discussion, but little clarity, about the legality of ìwaterboardingî under United States and international law. We write because this issue above all demands clarity: Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal.

In 2006 the Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the authority to prosecute terrorists under the war crimes provisions of Title 18 of the U.S. Code. In connection with those hearings the sitting Judge Advocates General of the military services were asked to submit written responses to a series of questions regarding ìthe use of a wet towel and dripping water to induce the misperception of drowning (i.e., waterboarding) . . .î Major General Scott Black, U.S. Army Judge Advocate General, Major General Jack Rives, U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate General, Rear Admiral Bruce MacDonald, U.S. Navy Judge Advocate General, and Brigadier Gen. Kevin Sandkuhler, Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, unanimously and unambiguously agreed that such conduct is inhumane and illegal and would constitute a violation of international law, to include Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

We agree with our active duty colleagues. This is a critically important issue ñ but it is not, and never has been, a complex issue, and even to suggest otherwise does a terrible disservice to this nation. All U.S. Government agencies and personnel, and not just Americaís military forces, must abide by both the spirit and letter of the controlling provisions of international law. Cruelty and torture ñ no less than wanton killing ñ is neither justified nor legal in any circumstance. It is essential to be clear, specific and unambiguous about this fact ñ as in fact we have been throughout Americaís history, at least until the last few years. Abu Ghraib and other notorious examples of detainee abuse have been the product, at least in part, of a self-serving and destructive disregard for the well- established legal principles applicable to this issue. This must end.

The Rule of Law is fundamental to our existence as a civilized nation. The Rule of Law is not a goal which we merely aspire to achieve; it is the floor below which we must not sink. For the Rule of Law to function effectively, however, it must provide actual rules that can be followed. In this instance, the relevant rule ñ the law ñ has long been clear: Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise ñ or even to give credence to such a suggestion ñ represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.

We respectfully urge you to consider these principles in connection with the nomination of Judge Mukasey.


Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000
Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88"
Seriously, it not just opinion, but by historical, dictionary and legal definition it's torture.

trying to rationalize it otherwise doesn't help our country.
Hope is the dream of the waking man.

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8
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